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Old 09-23-2005, 08:01   #1 (permalink)
byrocat
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Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump

I've been chasing this around in circles. I've replaced the cam
position sensor on my 1993 850, and still keep stalling. Four
non-starts after short trips plus two died-on-road.

The last non-restart had me trying to listen for the sound of the fuel
pump going. Ever tried that at a busy gas station and you're the only
person in the car.

In my attempts at the last one, I found that I got a trickle of fuel
for some start attempts. Just enough to have the engine turn over at
idle but it would die instantly when I touched the gas pedal. Engine
was running just a touch ragged but not excessively so.

The guys at the shop are talking fuel pump, but I'm thinking relay
first because everyone here who has been having similar problems on
their 1990's 850 and 960 cars have been commenting that the relay goes
more than the fuel pump.

Also, the books that I have do not show where the 850 fuel pump relay
is located.

Is it in the box along with the fuses but hidden up against the dash
side?

Thanks muchly.....

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Old 09-23-2005, 08:01   #2 (permalink)
Mike F
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relayor fuel pump

byrocat wrote:
>
> I've been chasing this around in circles. I've replaced the cam
> position sensor on my 1993 850, and still keep stalling. Four
> non-starts after short trips plus two died-on-road.
>
> The last non-restart had me trying to listen for the sound of the fuel
> pump going. Ever tried that at a busy gas station and you're the only
> person in the car.
>
> In my attempts at the last one, I found that I got a trickle of fuel
> for some start attempts. Just enough to have the engine turn over at
> idle but it would die instantly when I touched the gas pedal. Engine
> was running just a touch ragged but not excessively so.
>
> The guys at the shop are talking fuel pump, but I'm thinking relay
> first because everyone here who has been having similar problems on
> their 1990's 850 and 960 cars have been commenting that the relay goes
> more than the fuel pump.
>
> Also, the books that I have do not show where the 850 fuel pump relay
> is located.
>
> Is it in the box along with the fuses but hidden up against the dash
> side?
>
> Thanks muchly.....


The trickle of fuel is a clue, if the pump is working up to spec fuel
should shoot out.
According to my data book, fuel pump spec is 103-160 liters/hour at 13V,
87-145 at 12V and 70-128 at 11V.
If your pump is nowhere near this, I'd change it first.

The 93 is a bit of an oddball, in that it has an older fuel system than
94 and newer. The following applies to 94 and newer, but should mostly
apply to your '93.

The fuel pump relay hides under the cover beside the main fuse box,
number 103.
There is also a main relay, mounted above the rad, beside the fan
relay. It's usually gray, 4 round pins.

If you want to check the relays, splice a test bulb between the
following wires and ground:
fuel pump relay - red wire over the cover over the fuel tank sending
unit in the trunk
main relay - green wire at the relay

--
Mike F.
Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont.

Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly.
(But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.)
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Old 09-23-2005, 15:01   #3 (permalink)
pepe256
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump

ive been having that problem with mine i drive a 86 740 gle try
disconnecting the amm censor wires when its running and if that doesnt do
anything you may be getting a bad connection to the amm or it could be bad
which is not a good thing. you do have an amm dont you

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Old 09-23-2005, 17:01   #4 (permalink)
James Sweet
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump


"byrocat" <bdealhoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1127484292.839528.188100@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I've been chasing this around in circles. I've replaced the cam
> position sensor on my 1993 850, and still keep stalling. Four
> non-starts after short trips plus two died-on-road.
>
> The last non-restart had me trying to listen for the sound of the fuel
> pump going. Ever tried that at a busy gas station and you're the only
> person in the car.
>
> In my attempts at the last one, I found that I got a trickle of fuel
> for some start attempts. Just enough to have the engine turn over at
> idle but it would die instantly when I touched the gas pedal. Engine
> was running just a touch ragged but not excessively so.
>
> The guys at the shop are talking fuel pump, but I'm thinking relay
> first because everyone here who has been having similar problems on
> their 1990's 850 and 960 cars have been commenting that the relay goes
> more than the fuel pump.
>
> Also, the books that I have do not show where the 850 fuel pump relay
> is located.
>
> Is it in the box along with the fuses but hidden up against the dash
> side?
>
> Thanks muchly.....
>


Usually the relay is the cause of stalling, either can be the cause of
no-starts. Bad pump can burn out a good relay too.


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Old 09-23-2005, 18:01   #5 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump

"pepe256" <stefanarnold@comcast.net> wrote:

>ive been having that problem with mine i drive a 86 740 gle try
>disconnecting the amm censor wires when its running and if that doesnt do
>anything you may be getting a bad connection to the amm or it could be bad
>which is not a good thing. you do have an amm dont you


The computer has a default "Limp" mode that will cause the car to run
very rich and poorly with the AMM disconnected. You should avoid
connecting or disconnecting anything that is part of the computerized
system while the ignition is on.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 09-27-2005, 13:01   #6 (permalink)
byrocat
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump

I'm going to have to order a new relay and tell the shop "install!"
forcefully. The tech keeps saying that he sees more fue pumps than
relays. However, the price differential on the job (at least ten times
the cost of the relay for the fuel pump makes me a bit suspicious....)

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Old 09-27-2005, 17:01   #7 (permalink)
James Sweet
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump


"byrocat" <bdealhoy@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:1127848020.441778.74790@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm going to have to order a new relay and tell the shop "install!"
> forcefully. The tech keeps saying that he sees more fue pumps than
> relays. However, the price differential on the job (at least ten times
> the cost of the relay for the fuel pump makes me a bit suspicious....)
>



Well it's easy enough to jumper the relay for testing purposes, if the shop
hasn't thought to try this already then perhaps you should find another
shop.


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Old 09-28-2005, 07:01   #8 (permalink)
z
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump

byrocat wrote:
> I'm going to have to order a new relay and tell the shop "install!"
> forcefully. The tech keeps saying that he sees more fue pumps than
> relays. However, the price differential on the job (at least ten times
> the cost of the relay for the fuel pump makes me a bit suspicious....)


Yeah, you got that right. The rule for repair techs is go for the most
expensive possibility first, and if that doesn't do it, then you can
afford to eat the cost of the cheaper fix if you have to try it next.
All relays go bad often, although as the guy said, your seeing a
trickle of fuel puts a different spin on things. Could be clogged fuel
line, filter, in tank inlet filter. (Last time a mechanic got the
(wrong) idea that my fuel problems needed a new pump, it turned out
that the in tank inlet on the new pump was pre-collapsed from the
factory, so he had to replace it on his own dime. haha).

Meanwhile, I still can't figure out what's with my 240. Cranks but
won't start; mostly when it's been standing an hour or two. Works fine
first thing in the AM, 8 hrs later after work, or if it's only been
standing half an hour. Starts fine if I roll down a hill and drop it
into second, or give it a shot of starting juice. So I replaced the
relay; and nothing changed. I can hear the pump whining when it won't
start. ??

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Old 09-28-2005, 09:01   #9 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump

"z" <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote:

>Meanwhile, I still can't figure out what's with my 240. Cranks but
>won't start; mostly when it's been standing an hour or two. Works fine
>first thing in the AM, 8 hrs later after work, or if it's only been
>standing half an hour. Starts fine if I roll down a hill and drop it
>into second, or give it a shot of starting juice. So I replaced the
>relay; and nothing changed. I can hear the pump whining when it won't
>start. ??
>



When it won't start:

1) Check the battery voltage and the coil voltage when the motor is
cranking. The fact that it can bump start but can't start when
cranking is a clue.

2) It could be that the starter is drawing too much current and/or the
battery is going weak and has difficulty starting a hot motor that has
been sitting and heat soaking.

3) Check that the coil is getting voltage when cranking. I had a car
that had an ignition switch go bad and would not supply voltage to the
ignition system when the key was in the start position but did when
the key was in the run position. Do the same with the Ignition Power
Stage. Do the same with the fuel pump relay.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 09-28-2005, 14:02   #10 (permalink)
z
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Re: Stalling problems -- what's more likely to fail -- fuel pump relay or fuel pump


Randy G. wrote:
> "z" <gzuckier@snail-mail.net> wrote:
>
> >Meanwhile, I still can't figure out what's with my 240. Cranks but
> >won't start; mostly when it's been standing an hour or two. Works fine
> >first thing in the AM, 8 hrs later after work, or if it's only been
> >standing half an hour. Starts fine if I roll down a hill and drop it
> >into second, or give it a shot of starting juice. So I replaced the
> >relay; and nothing changed. I can hear the pump whining when it won't
> >start. ??
> >

>
>
> When it won't start:
>
> 1) Check the battery voltage and the coil voltage when the motor is
> cranking. The fact that it can bump start but can't start when
> cranking is a clue.
>
> 2) It could be that the starter is drawing too much current and/or the
> battery is going weak and has difficulty starting a hot motor that has
> been sitting and heat soaking.
>
> 3) Check that the coil is getting voltage when cranking. I had a car
> that had an ignition switch go bad and would not supply voltage to the
> ignition system when the key was in the start position but did when
> the key was in the run position. Do the same with the Ignition Power
> Stage. Do the same with the fuel pump relay.
>
>
> __ __
> Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
> \__/olvos
> '90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
> "Shelby" & "Kate"


Well, pretty close! It was a cracked distributor cap. Bleeding off
enough juice to be iffy ignitioning when it was also cranking. Don't
know how it relates to the half hour/1 hour/8 hour thing, but that's
the mystery of life. Now I have a spare relay.

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