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Old 09-07-2005, 14:01   #1 (permalink)
Randy G.
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still having problems with my 240

My 1990 245 still has a problem. It was running a bit rough, but
getting good mileage and had good power and response. Then one morning
it had a problem. It hesitates at throttle opening and is low on
power, but runs fair above about 2000 rpm, but still hesitates a
little when throttle is increased in that range, but responds better
than at off-idle. The off-idle peformance is really poor, and with a
cold engine I can nearly get it to die by slowly opening the throttle.
It feels to me like an overly-lean situation- no popping, backfiring,
or any such symptoms that would indicate an overly-rich state. When I
"pump" the throttle I can get it to not hesitate quiite so badly
off-idle, so it would seem, again, to point to an lean mixture (I
realize it does not have an accelerator pump).

At first I thought Throttle Position Switch, but the hesitation and
low-power is at least somewhat evident throughout the normal operating
RPM range.

I have checked a LOT of things, including (but not limited to):
-OBD socket 2 and socket 6 codes (none displayed for some time, but
originally was getting a 1-2-1, "no signal to/from AMM").
-OBD socket 2, test 2 and 3. Everything checked out fine.
-Cleaned and reinstalled throttle body
-Cleaned and reinstalled Idle Air Control (this car has the 2 wire
version
-Readjusted Throttle Position Switch (three times)
-Readjusted throttle cable and linkage
-Adjusted idle stop
-Checked for any air leaks between AMM and throttle body.
-Replaced Plugs, ignition wires, and dist cap (rotor on the way).
-Checked every vac line I could find, made sure that they were tight,
and trimmed the ends of those that felt even a little loose.
-Checked all the intake manifold bolts.
-Cleaned all vac fittings on manifold to be sure they were clear.
-Cleaned flame trap and related lines. (good vac at oil cap and no
significant oil leaks).
-Removed all under-hood connectors I could find, cleaned contacts,
silicone greased, and reconnected/disconnected a few times before
fastening.

Another oddity (maybe) is that the "Check Engine" light never came on.
It illuminates when the switch is in P-II and goes out when the cars
is started, but even when the AMM code was set, the light did not come
on... if that means anything... I hope not.

I have a few guesses as to what it might be, but to just start
replacing parts until I get lucky can get expensive, particularly with
what one or two of the suspects cost! I also have a few more things to
check, but thought I would ask here to see if I am heading in the
right direction before I give up and take it to an independent service
center..

I am going to try the "Spray something on all vac leak suspected
places to see if the RPM or behavior changes" trick (use WD-40?), but
if you have any thoughts or any directions to send me beyond all this
please feel free to share them. I would much rather be driving my car
than washing my hands three or four times a day with mechanics' hand
cleaner, if you know what I mean..

It is (or seems to be) idling a bit smoother (roughness mostly gone, I
think) but the hesitation is fairly severe and needs to be taken care
of.

When started cold, it goes to about 2000 RPM, drops to about 700-800
or so, goes back up to about 1100, then settles in at around 1000,
slowly dropping to around the correct idle speed as it warms up.

HELP!

.... and thanks!


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 09-07-2005, 15:01   #2 (permalink)
Misterbeets
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Re: still having problems with my 240

Could still be an ignition problem, despite all you've changed. Sudden
onset and all. I'd also check your EGR is not stuck open.

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Old 09-07-2005, 16:01   #3 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: still having problems with my 240

"Misterbeets" <misterbeets@gmail.com> wrote:

>Could still be an ignition problem, despite all you've changed. Sudden
>onset and all. I'd also check your EGR is not stuck open.


I think I may have stumbled upon something- more background. The
seller was not totally honest about the car (no surprise there) but
the shop who serviced it was also less than forthwith as to the car's
condition. Based on what I have seen, I think this car sat unused for
a while. I don't think it was too long, but for a car that has just
short of 190,000 on it, long enough to create some difficulties.

I got a Mityvac unit today and hooked it up to a few things- among
them the fuel line pressure regulator, which I worked a few times with
the vac pump. I think it might have been just a bit sticky, and I
think it is now working better. Additionally, the other problems (old
distributor cap, rotor, plugs, and wires) which needed changing were
also a small part of the problem. Add to that I found a few slightly
loose vac lines- just a bit, mind you, as well as a dirty vac port on
the flame trap... getting the picture? There wasn't any one thing
terribly wrong, but a lot of little things which cumulatively added up
to a rough running motor.

So.... With those other problems going on, when I adjusted the
throttle plate's stop screw, the throttle position switch, and the
throttle linkage, I got it wrong. Seemed OK at the time, but with the
other problems it made it difficult to tell what was going on, and I
had adjusted it with the throttle too open. Remember that these
engines have the idle controlled by the computer by varying the
mixture (this one has the two-wire idle air control which is either
open or closed, I think. In any case it doesn't vibrate like the one
on my 960, but seems to be binary...?). When the throttle is too open
it throws off the idle mixture because the computer is dealing with
air through the calibrated Idle Air Control valve as well as the air
getting past the throttle plate in the throttle body. So off idle
performance suffers in the transition between idle and just off idle.

So, it goes to show that 1, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
and 2, these cars are quite complicated and the systems are so
interrelated that it can be difficult to find small problems.

Now, if I can just figure out why it keeps posting a 1-2-1 code for a
"Bad/missing signal to/from AMM." Yup- did it again while I was
adjusting the idle and throttle... :-/

__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"

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Old 09-07-2005, 16:01   #4 (permalink)
Glenn Klein
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Posts: n/a
Re: still having problems with my 240

Randy G. wrote:
> "Misterbeets" <misterbeets@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Could still be an ignition problem, despite all you've changed. Sudden
>>onset and all. I'd also check your EGR is not stuck open.

>
>
> I think I may have stumbled upon something- more background. The
> seller was not totally honest about the car (no surprise there) but
> the shop who serviced it was also less than forthwith as to the car's
> condition. Based on what I have seen, I think this car sat unused for
> a while. I don't think it was too long, but for a car that has just
> short of 190,000 on it, long enough to create some difficulties.
>
> I got a Mityvac unit today and hooked it up to a few things- among
> them the fuel line pressure regulator, which I worked a few times with
> the vac pump. I think it might have been just a bit sticky, and I
> think it is now working better. Additionally, the other problems (old
> distributor cap, rotor, plugs, and wires) which needed changing were
> also a small part of the problem. Add to that I found a few slightly
> loose vac lines- just a bit, mind you, as well as a dirty vac port on
> the flame trap... getting the picture? There wasn't any one thing
> terribly wrong, but a lot of little things which cumulatively added up
> to a rough running motor.
>
> So.... With those other problems going on, when I adjusted the
> throttle plate's stop screw, the throttle position switch, and the
> throttle linkage, I got it wrong. Seemed OK at the time, but with the
> other problems it made it difficult to tell what was going on, and I
> had adjusted it with the throttle too open. Remember that these
> engines have the idle controlled by the computer by varying the
> mixture (this one has the two-wire idle air control which is either
> open or closed, I think. In any case it doesn't vibrate like the one
> on my 960, but seems to be binary...?). When the throttle is too open
> it throws off the idle mixture because the computer is dealing with
> air through the calibrated Idle Air Control valve as well as the air
> getting past the throttle plate in the throttle body. So off idle
> performance suffers in the transition between idle and just off idle.
>
> So, it goes to show that 1, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing,
> and 2, these cars are quite complicated and the systems are so
> interrelated that it can be difficult to find small problems.
>
> Now, if I can just figure out why it keeps posting a 1-2-1 code for a
> "Bad/missing signal to/from AMM." Yup- did it again while I was
> adjusting the idle and throttle... :-/
>
> __ __
> Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
> \__/olvos
> '90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
> "Shelby" & "Kate"
>

Have you moved the coil wire away from the MAF sensor cable this will
also set 121 a wire tie will do attach to a brake line @ the master Cyl

--
"*-344-*Never Forgotten"
Is for the New York City Firemen who lost their lives on September 11,2001.
The official count is 343, but there was also a volunteer who lost his life
aiding in the initial rescue efforts. And I will never forget them as
long as I live,
nor should any American.
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Old 09-07-2005, 17:02   #5 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: still having problems with my 240

Glenn Klein <Glenn@hotmail.net> wrote:

>Have you moved the coil wire away from the MAF sensor cable this will
>also set 121 a wire tie will do attach to a brake line @ the master Cyl
>

I wouldn't have thought of that! I don't think that it is an issue
with my car....

On the '90 245, the coil is mounted in a bracket on the front of the
driver's side strut tower along with the power steering reservoir, and
the distributor is on the left front side of the motor, so the coil
wire runs in a long, straight line from one to the other.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 09-07-2005, 20:01   #6 (permalink)
Clay
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Re: still having problems with my 240

Randy G. wrote:
> Glenn Klein <Glenn@hotmail.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Have you moved the coil wire away from the MAF sensor cable this will
>>also set 121 a wire tie will do attach to a brake line @ the master Cyl
>>

>
> I wouldn't have thought of that! I don't think that it is an issue
> with my car....
>
> On the '90 245, the coil is mounted in a bracket on the front of the
> driver's side strut tower along with the power steering reservoir, and
> the distributor is on the left front side of the motor, so the coil
> wire runs in a long, straight line from one to the other...


....and in the case of my '83 245, the coil wire ran right behind the
power steering reservoir. While underway, the wire rubbed up against the
tank enough to wear the insulation off the wire and short to ground.
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Old 09-08-2005, 13:01   #7 (permalink)
Tim McNamara
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Re: still having problems with my 240

In article <uoouh1plrejqblh89tt8vucflvssjsinuv@4ax.com>,
"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:

> Now, if I can just figure out why it keeps posting a 1-2-1 code for a
> "Bad/missing signal to/from AMM." Yup- did it again while I was
> adjusting the idle and throttle... :-/


Hmmm:

1. bad connection at the plug into the AMM or bad wires to AMM?

2. bad AMM?
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Old 09-08-2005, 18:01   #8 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Posts: n/a
Re: still having problems with my 240

Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

>In article <uoouh1plrejqblh89tt8vucflvssjsinuv@4ax.com>,
> "Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
>
>> Now, if I can just figure out why it keeps posting a 1-2-1 code for a
>> "Bad/missing signal to/from AMM." Yup- did it again while I was
>> adjusting the idle and throttle... :-/

>
>Hmmm:
>
>1. bad connection at the plug into the AMM or bad wires to AMM?
>
>2. bad AMM?


Those were my first two guesses. I pulled back the boot and the wires
look and feel good. The AMM is more difficult to test. If I had a
spare it would be a lot easier, but they don't come cheap. If it keeps
posting the code I think I will shop for a used one.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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Old 09-09-2005, 22:02   #9 (permalink)
Tim McNamara
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Re: still having problems with my 240

In article <b3k1i19viukuij6lrsu7rdlvvnshm32jiv@4ax.com>,
"Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:

> Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <uoouh1plrejqblh89tt8vucflvssjsinuv@4ax.com>,
> > "Randy G." <frcn@DESPAMMOcncnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Now, if I can just figure out why it keeps posting a 1-2-1 code for a
> >> "Bad/missing signal to/from AMM." Yup- did it again while I was
> >> adjusting the idle and throttle... :-/

> >
> >Hmmm:
> >
> >1. bad connection at the plug into the AMM or bad wires to AMM?
> >
> >2. bad AMM?

>
> Those were my first two guesses. I pulled back the boot and the wires
> look and feel good. The AMM is more difficult to test. If I had a
> spare it would be a lot easier, but they don't come cheap. If it keeps
> posting the code I think I will shop for a used one.


If I understand correctly, the AMM can be tested with an ohmmeter.
There have been several references to this on the newsgroup. I think.
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Old 09-09-2005, 23:01   #10 (permalink)
Randy G.
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Re: still having problems with my 240

Tim McNamara <timmcn@bitstream.net> wrote:

>If I understand correctly, the AMM can be tested with an ohmmeter.
>There have been several references to this on the newsgroup. I think.
>


There are some basic tests that can be done, but my problem seems
intermittant and so I am not sure how effective they might be in
finding my problem. I have other things to deal with as well to
eliminate any other possible source of the casue, but at least for now
it's running decently.


__ __
Randy & \ \/ /alerie's
\__/olvos
'90 245 Estate - '93 965 Estate
"Shelby" & "Kate"
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