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Old 08-09-2005, 02:01   #1 (permalink)
Jon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

Hi All,

I checked my timing on Friday and all was OK, so left alone.

Some time ago now Richard was willing to bet "a cup of tea" that my
head gasket would be failing around cylinder No. 4.

On Saturday it went about 20miles from anywhere.... Lots of oil vapour
pouring through the breather into the turbo and still enough
compression in the rocker box to lift the oil filler clear of the
hole... By the time I got to a road 99% of the oil had been dumped or
burnt. I got towed home from the road.

I set about removing the head last night...

Big hole in gasket between the cylinder nearest the bulkhead and the
pushrod hole nearest the bulkhead...

After 150,000miles honeing marks are still visible in the middle 2
cylinders (never turned the engine over to check the other two). Top
of pistons look OK.

I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
silicon present between block and gasket.

I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.

Questions:
1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
it, indicating the thickest one.
2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
needed.
3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?
4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?

Any thoughts guys?
Jon
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Old 08-09-2005, 02:01   #2 (permalink)
Steve Taylor
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

Jon wrote:

> I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
> bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
> silicon present between block and gasket.


UGLY.

> I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
> night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.
>
> Questions:
> 1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
> conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
> it, indicating the thickest one.


The gasket thickness is determined by the block, con rods and pistons,
not by the head.

The head can be skimmed if its needed, but too much will be a problem -
get a good engine shop to see if the thing is warped first. How are the
valves ?

> 2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on?

I'd say dry, and torqued up properly.

> 3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?

I haven't.
> 4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
> condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
> dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
> con-rods to inspect?


Why not, you're already deep in the doo-doo, dropping the sump and
ladder frame isn't too hard, but make sure the sealing surfaces are
spotless before you reseal everything, and remember the pistons only go
in one way round.

Steve
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Old 08-09-2005, 03:01   #3 (permalink)
beamendsltd
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

In message <8qngf1t1n8o30qlctvprs80r9a32v9sf9o@4ax.com>
Jon <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I checked my timing on Friday and all was OK, so left alone.
>
> Some time ago now Richard was willing to bet "a cup of tea" that my
> head gasket would be failing around cylinder No. 4.
>
> On Saturday it went about 20miles from anywhere.... Lots of oil vapour
> pouring through the breather into the turbo and still enough
> compression in the rocker box to lift the oil filler clear of the
> hole... By the time I got to a road 99% of the oil had been dumped or
> burnt. I got towed home from the road.
>
> I set about removing the head last night...
>
> Big hole in gasket between the cylinder nearest the bulkhead and the
> pushrod hole nearest the bulkhead...
>
> After 150,000miles honeing marks are still visible in the middle 2
> cylinders (never turned the engine over to check the other two). Top
> of pistons look OK.
>
> I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
> bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
> silicon present between block and gasket.
>
> I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
> night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.
>
> Questions:
> 1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
> conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
> it, indicating the thickest one.


I'd get a place to give it the lightest skim they can - if nothing
else it proves everthing is ok.

> 2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
> always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
> becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
> blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
> between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
> perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
> normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
> needed.


Definately not. If the gasket won't seal the reason needs to found,
anything else is just putting off the ineviatble. The three holes
sound like the thickness indicators - they don't do anything else.

> 3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?


Elring are fine - I think they are OEM for LR anyway.

> 4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
> condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
> dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
> con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
> engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?


Worth a look - but usually no harm is done, 200Tdi's are pretty
good at running with bugger-all oil.

>
> Any thoughts guys?


It might be an idea just to check for play in the valve guides at
that sort of milage - again it's most likely to be absolutely fine,
but no harm in looking. Changing the guide seals while the lid is off
is a good idea.


> Jon


Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2005, 03:01   #4 (permalink)
Jon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

Richard,
Once again, many thanks. I'll keep all posted on progress.

Jon


On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 09:19:05 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote:

>In message <8qngf1t1n8o30qlctvprs80r9a32v9sf9o@4ax.com>
> Jon <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I checked my timing on Friday and all was OK, so left alone.
>>
>> Some time ago now Richard was willing to bet "a cup of tea" that my
>> head gasket would be failing around cylinder No. 4.
>>
>> On Saturday it went about 20miles from anywhere.... Lots of oil vapour
>> pouring through the breather into the turbo and still enough
>> compression in the rocker box to lift the oil filler clear of the
>> hole... By the time I got to a road 99% of the oil had been dumped or
>> burnt. I got towed home from the road.
>>
>> I set about removing the head last night...
>>
>> Big hole in gasket between the cylinder nearest the bulkhead and the
>> pushrod hole nearest the bulkhead...
>>
>> After 150,000miles honeing marks are still visible in the middle 2
>> cylinders (never turned the engine over to check the other two). Top
>> of pistons look OK.
>>
>> I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
>> bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
>> silicon present between block and gasket.
>>
>> I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
>> night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.
>>
>> Questions:
>> 1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
>> conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
>> it, indicating the thickest one.

>
>I'd get a place to give it the lightest skim they can - if nothing
>else it proves everthing is ok.
>
>> 2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
>> always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
>> becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
>> blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
>> between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
>> perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
>> normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
>> needed.

>
>Definately not. If the gasket won't seal the reason needs to found,
>anything else is just putting off the ineviatble. The three holes
>sound like the thickness indicators - they don't do anything else.


As I thought...
>
>> 3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?

>
>Elring are fine - I think they are OEM for LR anyway.


Thanks.

>
>> 4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
>> condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
>> dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
>> con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
>> engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?

>
>Worth a look - but usually no harm is done, 200Tdi's are pretty
>good at running with bugger-all oil.


Thats a relief. Given there was only the slightest rattle for a short
while I'll leave it alone I think.

>
>>
>> Any thoughts guys?

>
>It might be an idea just to check for play in the valve guides at
>that sort of milage - again it's most likely to be absolutely fine,
>but no harm in looking. Changing the guide seals while the lid is off
>is a good idea.
>

Will do.



>
>> Jon

>
>Richard


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Old 08-09-2005, 03:01   #5 (permalink)
Leonard
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

beamendsltd wrote:

> In message <8qngf1t1n8o30qlctvprs80r9a32v9sf9o@4ax.com>
> Jon <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>I checked my timing on Friday and all was OK, so left alone.
>>
>>Some time ago now Richard was willing to bet "a cup of tea" that my
>>head gasket would be failing around cylinder No. 4.
>>
>>On Saturday it went about 20miles from anywhere.... Lots of oil vapour
>>pouring through the breather into the turbo and still enough
>>compression in the rocker box to lift the oil filler clear of the
>>hole... By the time I got to a road 99% of the oil had been dumped or
>>burnt. I got towed home from the road.
>>
>>I set about removing the head last night...
>>
>>Big hole in gasket between the cylinder nearest the bulkhead and the
>>pushrod hole nearest the bulkhead...
>>
>>After 150,000miles honeing marks are still visible in the middle 2
>>cylinders (never turned the engine over to check the other two). Top
>>of pistons look OK.
>>
>>I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
>>bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
>>silicon present between block and gasket.
>>
>>I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
>>night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.
>>
>>Questions:
>>1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
>>conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
>>it, indicating the thickest one.

>
>
> I'd get a place to give it the lightest skim they can - if nothing
> else it proves everthing is ok.
>
>
>>2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
>>always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
>>becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
>>blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
>>between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
>>perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
>>normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
>>needed.

>
>
> Definately not. If the gasket won't seal the reason needs to found,
> anything else is just putting off the ineviatble. The three holes
> sound like the thickness indicators - they don't do anything else.
>
>
>>3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?

>
>
> Elring are fine - I think they are OEM for LR anyway.
>
>
>>4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
>>condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
>>dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
>>con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
>>engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?

>
>
> Worth a look - but usually no harm is done, 200Tdi's are pretty
> good at running with bugger-all oil.
>
>
>>Any thoughts guys?

>
>
> It might be an idea just to check for play in the valve guides at
> that sort of milage - again it's most likely to be absolutely fine,
> but no harm in looking. Changing the guide seals while the lid is off
> is a good idea.
>
>
>
>>Jon

>
>
> Richard

As above, also maybe wise to put a straight edge across the block as well.
Leo
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Old 08-09-2005, 06:01   #6 (permalink)
Jon
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

Thoughts generally seem to be leave the bottom end alone, fill back
with oil and see what happens! Oil pressure light never came on so
there must be enough oil left in the sump to keep lubricated??

I am a little concerned about which head gasket to order - the three
hole one came off (ERR5263 ?), should I just order another 3 hole one
or measure piston protrusion and get a 2 hole on (ERR5262 ?) if within
tolerance, as per Mr Haynes??

That said, does the 0.1mm difference in thickness actually make any
difference? Should I save myself the hassle and go with a 3 hole
gasket? Measuring piston protrusion will not be too easy as i have no
gauge with which to measure!

Thanks
Jon


On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 08:18:41 +0000 (UTC), Jon <nospam@nospam.com>
wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I checked my timing on Friday and all was OK, so left alone.
>
>Some time ago now Richard was willing to bet "a cup of tea" that my
>head gasket would be failing around cylinder No. 4.
>
>On Saturday it went about 20miles from anywhere.... Lots of oil vapour
>pouring through the breather into the turbo and still enough
>compression in the rocker box to lift the oil filler clear of the
>hole... By the time I got to a road 99% of the oil had been dumped or
>burnt. I got towed home from the road.
>
>I set about removing the head last night...
>
>Big hole in gasket between the cylinder nearest the bulkhead and the
>pushrod hole nearest the bulkhead...
>
>After 150,000miles honeing marks are still visible in the middle 2
>cylinders (never turned the engine over to check the other two). Top
>of pistons look OK.
>
>I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
>bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
>silicon present between block and gasket.
>
>I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
>night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.
>
>Questions:
>1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
>conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
>it, indicating the thickest one.
>2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
>always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
>becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
>blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
>between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
>perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
>normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
>needed.
>3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?
>4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
>condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
>dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
>con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
>engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?
>
>Any thoughts guys?
>Jon


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Old 08-09-2005, 06:01   #7 (permalink)
Badger
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...


"Jon" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8qngf1t1n8o30qlctvprs80r9a32v9sf9o@4ax.com...
> Hi All,
>
> I checked my timing on Friday and all was OK, so left alone.
>
> Some time ago now Richard was willing to bet "a cup of tea" that my
> head gasket would be failing around cylinder No. 4.
>
> On Saturday it went about 20miles from anywhere.... Lots of oil vapour
> pouring through the breather into the turbo and still enough
> compression in the rocker box to lift the oil filler clear of the
> hole... By the time I got to a road 99% of the oil had been dumped or
> burnt. I got towed home from the road.
>
> I set about removing the head last night...
>
> Big hole in gasket between the cylinder nearest the bulkhead and the
> pushrod hole nearest the bulkhead...
>
> After 150,000miles honeing marks are still visible in the middle 2
> cylinders (never turned the engine over to check the other two). Top
> of pistons look OK.
>
> I am sure the head has been off before (previous owner). Firstly,
> bolts where not all torqued down to the same amount and secondly,
> silicon present between block and gasket.
>
> I dont know yet how much oil is left in the sump (never got to it last
> night). I do know bugger all shows on the dipstick.
>
> Questions:
> 1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
> conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
> it, indicating the thickest one.


It can, although some will say you shouldn't. I wouldn't take more than 10
thou off of one in total.

> 2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
> always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
> becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
> blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
> between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
> perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
> normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
> needed.


Fit gasket dry, or with a very thin smear of Hylomar around the water
jackets only. Do not use silicon!!

> 3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?


Yes.

> 4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
> condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
> dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
> con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
> engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?


Wouldn't hurt to check, would it?

> Any thoughts guys?
> Jon


Also, even though the book says no need, if the head bolts have been re-used
maybe a couple of times then I'd replace the bolts just to be safe. Even
though they aren't stretch bolts, you never know if anyone has overtorqued
them beyond the elastic limits.
Badger.


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Old 08-09-2005, 15:02   #8 (permalink)
Derry Argue
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

"Badger" <brianhatton@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:dda709$92n$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:

>
> Also, even though the book says no need, if the head bolts have been
> re-used maybe a couple of times then I'd replace the bolts just to be
> safe. Even though they aren't stretch bolts, you never know if anyone
> has overtorqued them beyond the elastic limits.
> Badger.


I was waiting for someone to say that. My local diesel "expert" put three
new head gaskets onto one of my Peugeot 504's before I learnt sense and
went to the local dealer. (Each new gasket blew!).

The first thing the dealers did was to replace the bolts. Soon after,
Peugeot only supplied new head gaskets with a set of new bolts as standard.
What do they cost against peace of mind? A few quid well spent.

Derry
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:01   #9 (permalink)
Niamh Holding
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

In article <8qngf1t1n8o30qlctvprs80r9a32v9sf9o@4ax.com>,
nospam@nospam.com (Jon) wrote:

> 1. Can or should the head be skimmed? I have read previously
> conflicting opinionson this. The gasket that came off had 3 holes in
> it, indicating the thickest one.


Get it checked by someone reputable and take their advice.

> 2. Should gasket sealer be used when I put the new gasket on? I
> always thought they should be put on dry. The reason I ask is
> becacuse when I removed the current one there was some silicon
> blocking a few small holes in the block (approx 3mm or 4mm diameter
> between the pushrod holes in the gasket. This sounds bad to me and is
> perhaps a reason why my temperature was always on the higher side of
> normal. I have photos of the holes in question if clarification is
> needed.


No sealer there ever.
> 3. What is the opinion on gaskets? Use genuine LR ones?


See Richard's reply.

> 4. After 150,000 miles, and Saturdays limp to a road, what sort of
> condition are my big-end bearings likely to be in? Is it worth
> dropping the sump off and removing the underside shell of a couple of
> con-rods to inspect? I figure this may be easier than lifting out the
> engine if bottom end is still OK!?!?


I'd replace them as a matter of course at that milage after checking the
crank itself of course., and while the pistons are out I'd fit new rings
at the same time


Niamh.
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Old 08-11-2005, 12:01   #10 (permalink)
Niamh Holding
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: 200Tdi Defender - Head Gasket gone...

In article <fd6hf11vkf5ad5j02i1fd2qtaqfe5bjd1q@4ax.com>,
nospam@nospam.com (Jon) wrote:

> I am a little concerned about which head gasket to order - the three
> hole one came off (ERR5263 ?), should I just order another 3 hole one
> or measure piston protrusion and get a 2 hole on (ERR5262 ?) if within
> tolerance, as per Mr Haynes??


Measure it and fit the right one, FWIW we generally find that 1 hole is
actually the right one.

--
Niamh
4x4 Cymru
http://www.4x4cymru.co.uk

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