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Old 06-20-2005, 11:02   #1 (permalink)
Austin Shackles
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bastard designers.


I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be made to
do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as part of their
training.


replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for posting it
promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future) *should* take about
10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour, thanks to stuff in the way
in all directions where you might access the unnecessarily large gland nut
that secures it to the block.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
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Old 06-20-2005, 12:02   #2 (permalink)
GbH
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Re: bastard designers.

In news:69tdb1p3tgtru93qhgamcko1a04hdgar0d@4ax.com,
Austin Shackles <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> blithered:
> I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be
> made to do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as
> part of their training.
>
>
> replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for
> posting it promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future)
> *should* take about 10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour,
> thanks to stuff in the way in all directions where you might access
> the unnecessarily large gland nut that secures it to the block.


Remember components are not designed for replacement but for original assembly.
Bet it goes in p'easy with the motor bare?

--
"He who says it cannot be done should not interrupt her doing it."

If at first you don't succeed,
maybe skydiving's not for you!


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Old 06-20-2005, 13:02   #3 (permalink)
Austin Shackles
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.

On or around Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:59:48 +0100, "GbH"
<Geoff_Hannington@IEE.ORGasm> enlightened us thusly:

>In news:69tdb1p3tgtru93qhgamcko1a04hdgar0d@4ax.com,
>Austin Shackles <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> blithered:
>> I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be
>> made to do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as
>> part of their training.
>>
>>
>> replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for
>> posting it promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future)
>> *should* take about 10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour,
>> thanks to stuff in the way in all directions where you might access
>> the unnecessarily large gland nut that secures it to the block.

>
>Remember components are not designed for replacement but for original assembly.
>Bet it goes in p'easy with the motor bare?


undoubtedly. However, one of the things that was in the way was the oil
dipstick tube, which could easily be further away, and not foul the access
for yer spanner. Also, if the bottom end of the pipe had a flange and 2 8mm
bolts like the top end does, rather than the sod-off gland nut (28mm on the
old one, 27mm on the new one), it'd be a whole heap easier to install.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
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Old 06-20-2005, 16:01   #4 (permalink)
Badger
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.


"Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
news:p27eb1t7p6ifmtvvljotoh9rd6rg3sh8fe@4ax.com...
> On or around Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:59:48 +0100, "GbH"
> <Geoff_Hannington@IEE.ORGasm> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>In news:69tdb1p3tgtru93qhgamcko1a04hdgar0d@4ax.com,
>>Austin Shackles <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> blithered:
>>> I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be
>>> made to do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as
>>> part of their training.
>>>
>>>
>>> replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for
>>> posting it promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future)
>>> *should* take about 10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour,
>>> thanks to stuff in the way in all directions where you might access
>>> the unnecessarily large gland nut that secures it to the block.

>>
>>Remember components are not designed for replacement but for original
>>assembly.
>>Bet it goes in p'easy with the motor bare?

>
> undoubtedly. However, one of the things that was in the way was the oil
> dipstick tube, which could easily be further away, and not foul the access
> for yer spanner. Also, if the bottom end of the pipe had a flange and 2
> 8mm
> bolts like the top end does, rather than the sod-off gland nut (28mm on
> the
> old one, 27mm on the new one), it'd be a whole heap easier to install.


Try working on aircraft, Austin. landrover aren't anywhere close to being in
the same design ballpark when it comes to "bastard engineering"!
Badger.


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Old 06-21-2005, 03:01   #5 (permalink)
ricepudding
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.


"Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
news:69tdb1p3tgtru93qhgamcko1a04hdgar0d@4ax.com...
>
> I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be made

to
> do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as part of their
> training.
>
>
> replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for posting

it
> promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future) *should* take about
> 10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour, thanks to stuff in the way
> in all directions where you might access the unnecessarily large gland nut
> that secures it to the block.
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
> Boswell's "Johnson".
>
>
>
>I have been Twenty-nine years in the motor trade. I came to the >conclusion

that designers should be hung upside-down by the >bollocks after the first
hour working on a car.
> I think a cattle prod could be therapeutic for you if you ever
> find one of the assholes.
>
>
>ricepudding.




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Old 06-21-2005, 03:01   #6 (permalink)
Austin Shackles
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.

On or around Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:41:30 +0000 (UTC), "Badger"
<brianhatton@btinternet.com> enlightened us thusly:

>Try working on aircraft, Austin. landrover aren't anywhere close to being in
>the same design ballpark when it comes to "bastard engineering"!
>Badger.


there's some slight excuse in the case of aircraft, though, where weight and
space are sometimes at a premium.

The little aircraft museum at caernarvon airfield has an engine set up so
you can look at it. Wonder if I can remember what. Bugger. I can find the
pictures, but no captions. It's a radial, I think a 14-cylinder 2-bank.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:01   #7 (permalink)
Roberts
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.

ricepudding wrote:
> "Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
> news:69tdb1p3tgtru93qhgamcko1a04hdgar0d@4ax.com...
>>
>> I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be
>> made to do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as
>> part of their training.
>>
>>
>> replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for
>> posting it promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future)
>> *should* take about 10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour,
>> thanks to stuff in the way in all directions where you might access
>> the unnecessarily large gland nut that secures it to the block.
>>
>> --
>> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
>> "Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
>> Boswell's "Johnson".
>>
>>
>>
>> I have been Twenty-nine years in the motor trade. I came to the
>> >conclusion

> that designers should be hung upside-down by the >bollocks after the
> first hour working on a car.
>> I think a cattle prod could be therapeutic for you if you ever
>> find one of the assholes.
>>
>>
>> ricepudding.


After thirty years working on all sorts of vehicles, I then became a manager
and was then moved into the planning/design side. As with any job there are
designers and designers. We have the people fresh from university with their
degree who know it all. There is also the people who take the easy way out
and design things without leaving their desks. Then you have the people who
have not been worn down by the system and try to do a sensible job but have
to suffer when the Purchasing people slide into the Managing Director and
get changes instituted just to save a few pence. The biggest opponent is the
company accountant. He sees only the initial cost and wants only the
cheapest thing purchased, when the thing goes wrong "oh thats a workshops
problem".
Then you find that purchasing have negotiated away the waranty period. When
you dig your toes in and make a fuss - you are told "you are not a team
player - we have no use for prima donnas. I do agree though, all people who
design things should spend a time dealing with user. Who the hell designed
the Centurion tank, he should have been made to work on it in temperatures
of 100degrees F and then try at minus forty as well. I always liked the
story of the guy designed the gear linkage to go through the turret
assembly -so that when the turret was rotated it sheared the linkage! I'm
not sure that it was true but it makes a good story. Never mind the
amphibious vehicle that would not float. Now I await the insults¨!!!!
Robert


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Old 06-21-2005, 09:02   #8 (permalink)
beamendsltd
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.

In message <3hqkv4Fid8vjU1@individual.net>
"Roberts" <EYE_H4T3_5P4Ms-roberts@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> ricepudding wrote:
> > "Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
> > news:69tdb1p3tgtru93qhgamcko1a04hdgar0d@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> I think I've already done this rant. bloody designers should all be
> >> made to do a minimum of a year as a mechanic in a busy workshop as
> >> part of their training.
> >>
> >>
> >> replacing the turbo oil drain pipe (thanks, Beamends Richard for
> >> posting it promptly, you should have a cheque in the near future)
> >> *should* take about 10 minutes. In reality, it took about an hour,
> >> thanks to stuff in the way in all directions where you might access
> >> the unnecessarily large gland nut that secures it to the block.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> >> "Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
> >> Boswell's "Johnson".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I have been Twenty-nine years in the motor trade. I came to the
> >> >conclusion

> > that designers should be hung upside-down by the >bollocks after the
> > first hour working on a car.
> >> I think a cattle prod could be therapeutic for you if you ever
> >> find one of the assholes.
> >>
> >>
> >> ricepudding.

>
> After thirty years working on all sorts of vehicles, I then became a manager
> and was then moved into the planning/design side. As with any job there are
> designers and designers. We have the people fresh from university with their
> degree who know it all. There is also the people who take the easy way out
> and design things without leaving their desks. Then you have the people who
> have not been worn down by the system and try to do a sensible job but have
> to suffer when the Purchasing people slide into the Managing Director and
> get changes instituted just to save a few pence. The biggest opponent is the
> company accountant. He sees only the initial cost and wants only the
> cheapest thing purchased, when the thing goes wrong "oh thats a workshops
> problem".
> Then you find that purchasing have negotiated away the waranty period. When
> you dig your toes in and make a fuss - you are told "you are not a team
> player - we have no use for prima donnas. I do agree though, all people who
> design things should spend a time dealing with user. Who the hell designed
> the Centurion tank, he should have been made to work on it in temperatures
> of 100degrees F and then try at minus forty as well. I always liked the
> story of the guy designed the gear linkage to go through the turret
> assembly -so that when the turret was rotated it sheared the linkage! I'm
> not sure that it was true but it makes a good story. Never mind the
> amphibious vehicle that would not float. Now I await the insults¨!!!!
> Robert
>
>


I don't think you'll get many insults - I for one got completely
disillusioned with the software industry and the youngsters with
nice shiney degrees who insisted in re-inventing the wheel, so I
moved into the software side of the automotive industry (when we had
one) and that was even worse - software and hardware ("Designers")
engineers doing exactly the same. The mentality was "it must have
blue calipers and be as fast as possible". Suggesting the practical
and/or functional might be a good idea met with looks of horror.
Like you I was branded a trouble maker for daring to point out
that doing it right may have some value. One Land Rover engineer
seriously believed that the Discovery was "just a caravan tug",
and another who had been a leading light on 38a Range Rover said
"We never thought of that" when I suggested that having a space
saver spare would destroy its off road image (it *very* nearly
happened - I'm saying nothing about the new 4x4 Transit, oh
sorry, Discovey III).

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:02   #9 (permalink)
Steve Taylor
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Posts: n/a
Re: bastard designers.

beamendsltd wrote:
> The mentality was "it must have
> blue calipers and be as fast as possible". Suggesting the practical
> and/or functional might be a good idea met with looks of horror.
> Like you I was branded a trouble maker for daring to point out
> that doing it right may have some value. One Land Rover engineer
> seriously believed that the Discovery was "just a caravan tug",
> and another who had been a leading light on 38a Range Rover said
> "We never thought of that" when I suggested that having a space
> saver spare would destroy its off road image (it *very* nearly
> happened - I'm saying nothing about the new 4x4 Transit, oh
> sorry, Discovey III).


Are Japanese built cars any better from a design/servicing point of
view, given how their Kanban systems (adopted from Demming - an
American) are supposed to work, feeding improvements back into the design ?

Steve
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Old 06-21-2005, 12:02   #10 (permalink)
Disco Duck
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Re: bastard designers.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 10:06:31 -0500, Steve Taylor wrote
(in article <42b82a28$0$23714$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk>):

> beamendsltd wrote:
>> The mentality was "it must have
>> blue calipers and be as fast as possible". Suggesting the practical
>> and/or functional might be a good idea met with looks of horror.
>> Like you I was branded a trouble maker for daring to point out
>> that doing it right may have some value. One Land Rover engineer
>> seriously believed that the Discovery was "just a caravan tug",
>> and another who had been a leading light on 38a Range Rover said
>> "We never thought of that" when I suggested that having a space
>> saver spare would destroy its off road image (it *very* nearly
>> happened - I'm saying nothing about the new 4x4 Transit, oh
>> sorry, Discovey III).

>
> Are Japanese built cars any better from a design/servicing point of
> view, given how their Kanban systems (adopted from Demming - an
> American) are supposed to work, feeding improvements back into the design ?
>
> Steve


One thing about the Japanese cars is that they are sold in Japan for one or
two years before they come to the west. That way they have experience with
the problems that might occur. Their first year models in Japan probably
have the same failure rate other manufactures. We don't just don't see them.

I work for a Japanese Semiconductor OEM and they are just as near sighted as
any of the American design engineers. They save pennies and then spend
dollars replacing parts under warranty.

I thought the new Disco III LR3 had a full size spare. If I had the money to
buy one though I would spend it on my 96 Disco.

Hud

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