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Old 04-10-2005, 01:01   #1 (permalink)
Eddie Green
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Posts: n/a
Bull Bars

Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames, etc. Are
they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing vehicles ? and what
about in France, is there any legislation there.
Thanks.
Eddie Green.


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Old 04-10-2005, 05:01   #2 (permalink)
MVP
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Eddie Green"
<ed.green@btinternet.com> wrote:

>Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames, etc. Are
>they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing vehicles ? and what
>about in France, is there any legislation there.
>Thanks.
>Eddie Green.
>


I've seen them fitted on new land rovers (defenders), proper ones too
not those plastic ones, so they must be legal, I don't know if you
have to prove some kind of need or not but as both are freely
available from many accessories dealers I can only assume that people
are buying them therefor they are legal and proper.

I'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about will be along
promptly, and if someone can quote some legislation etc then I'll make
a page for it on my website as it's worth info in my view.


Regards.
Mark.
--
_________________________________________
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
(3,000 rivets flying in close formation)
www.4x4info.info
www.mvp-fine-art.co.uk
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
charity calendar project -
http://www.4x4info.info/calendar/
_________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<

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Old 04-10-2005, 06:02   #3 (permalink)
Pantelis Giamarellos
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Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

Mark and Eddie hi,

I can not speak for France or the UK but supposedly all European Union
countries now apply the same rules and laws as specified under the common EU
directives for road going vehicles and their specifications.

So what applies here in Greece is that no vehicle is supposed to have any
kind of increase of more than 5 cm on its factory specified dimensions.
Bullbars or additional/reinforced bumpers are only allowed if they have a
specific type approval for the vehicle they are mounted on and ONLY if the
importer of the vehicle or the additional equipment (bullbar in our case)
has filed a special notification of the type approval to the competent
authorities (more precisely the Ministry of Transport and the MoT central
authotiry for vehicular technical inspections. Those two authorities have to
afterwards notify the Road and Highway Police so that they do not give
tickets to drivers of vehicles fitted with those "improvements")

Our club's advise to all owners of Land Rover vehicles with bullbars is to
ALWAYS carry with them a copy of the type approval or the protocoled type
approval notification filed by the importer of the vehicle or the bullbar
with them so that they do not have a ticket issued to them in case of a road
check or when they pass their MoT.

I have had a very serious court case against me because of the bullbar
fitted on my genuine 1994 evented Camel Trophy Discovery 200Tdi which was
finally won because I had a letter from the central LR legal and technical
departments specifying that CT vehicles were FACTORY fitted with the bullbar
and other equipment and had type approval when they were issued their road
registration number plates in the UK.

Hope this helps

Take care
Pantelis Giamarellos
LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

"MVP" <mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> wrote in message
news:9v0i51hagf7u69fgu941tebs2rv0l396o8@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:31:20 +0000 (UTC), "Eddie Green"
> <ed.green@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames, etc.

Are
> >they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing vehicles ? and

what
> >about in France, is there any legislation there.
> >Thanks.
> >Eddie Green.
> >

>
> I've seen them fitted on new land rovers (defenders), proper ones too
> not those plastic ones, so they must be legal, I don't know if you
> have to prove some kind of need or not but as both are freely
> available from many accessories dealers I can only assume that people
> are buying them therefor they are legal and proper.
>
> I'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about will be along
> promptly, and if someone can quote some legislation etc then I'll make
> a page for it on my website as it's worth info in my view.
>
>
> Regards.
> Mark.
> --
> _________________________________________
> 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
> (3,000 rivets flying in close formation)
> www.4x4info.info
> www.mvp-fine-art.co.uk
> www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
> charity calendar project -
> http://www.4x4info.info/calendar/
> _________________________________________
>
>
>
> ................................................................
> Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
> >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<

> -=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
>



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Old 04-10-2005, 06:02   #4 (permalink)
MVP
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:09:06 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
<pantg@otenet.gr> wrote:

>Mark and Eddie hi,
>
>I can not speak for France or the UK but supposedly all European Union
>countries now apply the same rules and laws as specified under the common EU
>directives for road going vehicles and their specifications.
>
>So what applies here in Greece is that no vehicle is supposed to have any
>kind of increase of more than 5 cm on its factory specified dimensions.
>Bullbars or additional/reinforced bumpers are only allowed if they have a
>specific type approval for the vehicle they are mounted on and ONLY if the
>importer of the vehicle or the additional equipment (bullbar in our case)
>has filed a special notification of the type approval to the competent
>authorities (more precisely the Ministry of Transport and the MoT central
>authotiry for vehicular technical inspections. Those two authorities have to
>afterwards notify the Road and Highway Police so that they do not give
>tickets to drivers of vehicles fitted with those "improvements")
>
>Our club's advise to all owners of Land Rover vehicles with bullbars is to
>ALWAYS carry with them a copy of the type approval or the protocoled type
>approval notification filed by the importer of the vehicle or the bullbar
>with them so that they do not have a ticket issued to them in case of a road
>check or when they pass their MoT.
>
>I have had a very serious court case against me because of the bullbar
>fitted on my genuine 1994 evented Camel Trophy Discovery 200Tdi which was
>finally won because I had a letter from the central LR legal and technical
>departments specifying that CT vehicles were FACTORY fitted with the bullbar
>and other equipment and had type approval when they were issued their road
>registration number plates in the UK.
>
>Hope this helps
>
>Take care
>Pantelis Giamarellos
>LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE


5cm?!?
crikey, what about roof racks then?


Regards.
Mark.
--
_________________________________________
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
(3,000 rivets flying in close formation)
www.4x4info.info
www.mvp-fine-art.co.uk
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
charity calendar project -
http://www.4x4info.info/calendar/
_________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<

-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

  Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2005, 10:02   #5 (permalink)
Nige
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

Eddie Green wrote:
> Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames,
> etc. Are they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing
> vehicles ? and what about in France, is there any legislation there.
> Thanks.
> Eddie Green.


Why do you want bullbars anyhow mate?

I really cant see what purpose they serve for normal road driving. They can make any accident damage a
fair bit worse & are not exactly good if you hit a pedestrian. I can see why they could be useful for off
road driving.

Anyone got any commenst about bullbars & have i missed the point etc?

Nige

--
Subaru WRX (The Bitch)

Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)

'"They called him Jimmy the gent"


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Old 04-10-2005, 10:02   #6 (permalink)
Paul S. Brown
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

Nige wrote:

> Eddie Green wrote:
>> Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames,
>> etc. Are they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing
>> vehicles ? and what about in France, is there any legislation there.
>> Thanks.
>> Eddie Green.

>
> Why do you want bullbars anyhow mate?
>
> I really cant see what purpose they serve for normal road driving. They
> can make any accident damage a fair bit worse & are not exactly good if
> you hit a pedestrian. I can see why they could be useful for off road
> driving.
>
> Anyone got any commenst about bullbars & have i missed the point etc?
>


Agree about exacerbating a pedestrian impact - not good in those situations.

What they do provide is a decent mounting point for extra lighting which is
always useful with a Landies headlamps.

I've also had them prevent major damage when one of the local deer decided
it was a rabbit and to try and outstare my Disco. Without the bullbars I'd
have had to replace a lot of the front offside corner of the car. As was I
had to take it through a carwash.

As per anything, there are arguments for and against. Personally I'd like
*something* up front to catch large vegetation on my motor, but that's
mostly used for offroad work and so the "road driving" thing doesn't apply.

P.

--
1992 200 TDI Disco - heavily modified
1982 V8 Range Rover - heavily corroded
2000 Rover 75 - heavily driven
1993 Lexus LS400 - just plain heavy on fuel
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Old 04-10-2005, 13:01   #7 (permalink)
Ian Rawlings
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

On 2005-04-10, Paul S. Brown <landies@geekstuff.tv> wrote:

> Agree about exacerbating a pedestrian impact - not good in those
> situations.


After some outcry in our wonderful objective unsensationalising media
about child-killing bullbars the government did some research into it
with the help of the various agencies that actually attend accidents
and fix people up and so are in a position to know. After an argument
in an unrelated newsgroup about bullbars I dug the report up and read
it, I don't have it to hand now and can't be bothered to find it so if
anyone's interested they can look for themselves.

The gist of it was;

* Bullbars have been implicated in a grand total of 3 deaths in the
UK in one year, and only tipped the balance from almost certainly
fatal to actually fatal,

* On some 4x4s the Bullbars have caused a relatively minor increase in
injury to accident victims,

* On some 4x4s the Bullbars flex more than the vehicle itself and so
are likely to have reduced injury to accident victims.

* The potential for injury caused by the Bullbars is entirely
dependent on the design of the Bullbars and the design of the
vehicle on which they are mounted.

Basically fitting Bullbars to a Defender isn't going to make one tiny
iota of difference to someone you hit, it's the whacking great big 4x4
with the chassis sticking out the front that'll kill them. A Toyota
Rav-4 or a Volvo XC90 (or whatever it is) on the other hand is much
less likely to kill someone than a Defender, fitting Bullbars to such
soft-roaders is likely to cause extra injury but the statistics from
the crash reports indicated that it wasn't significant.

Hence they weren't banned in this country.

People who worry about the morality of fitting Bullbars really
shouldn't be driving Landrover products, they're not very nice things
to hit people with, much worse than most of their competitors.
Insurance industry figures released last year showed that across the
whole of the UK, in accidents involving two vehicles in which one
vehicle's occupants were killed, the surviving occupants were most
likely to be driving a Defender. Much to my surprise this was
trumpeted in the press that I saw as proof that the Defender is very
safe, personally I'd say it shows the exact opposite! Post-BMW
Discoveries and Range Rovers won't be any better.

In addition to all that waffle, the majority of Bullbars are mounted
at the base with bolts through the chassis and have a levering effect
on those mount points. This means that a heavy impact on them is
likely to put so much force on the mounting point that you risk
tearing the chassis at that point, if the bolts or Bullbar don't break
first. With vegetation and other such stuff that's not likely to make
a difference, but if you are ever tempted to tie a tow rope to the
Bullbar and pull something with it or be towed with it, you stand a
good risk of causing some nasty damage to the vehicle or Bullbar.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert
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Old 04-10-2005, 16:02   #8 (permalink)
Austin Shackles
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

On or around Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:16:05 +0100, "Nige"
<nigel.inceFANNYFART@btinternet.com> enlightened us thusly:

>Eddie Green wrote:
>> Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames,
>> etc. Are they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing
>> vehicles ? and what about in France, is there any legislation there.
>> Thanks.
>> Eddie Green.

>
>Why do you want bullbars anyhow mate?
>
>I really cant see what purpose they serve for normal road driving. They can make any accident damage a
>fair bit worse & are not exactly good if you hit a pedestrian. I can see why they could be useful for off
>road driving.
>
>Anyone got any commenst about bullbars & have i missed the point etc?


mine looks better IMHO with the bar on it and it provides a good solid mount
for the spotlamps.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
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Old 04-11-2005, 00:01   #9 (permalink)
Pantelis Giamarellos
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

Nige Hi,

I totally agree with your on bullbars being both un-necessary and dangerous
on vehicles that are used mainly on the road or for slight or medium off
roading use.
This is why I have removed it (along with the roofrack) from one of my two
camels. The other one is being kept at 100% original state (down to its
event battle scars) as a future classic vehicle.

To get back to your point about bullbars I can also add that a chassis
mounted bullbar will definately cause more damage to the vehicle it is
mounted on in case on an accident since the chassis can get more easily bent
and also bullbars tend to spread damage in a larger bodyshell area while
vehicles without bullbars tend to have accident damage focused only in the
"contact" area.

They also signicicantly alter the way the vehicle handles because they add
so much weight in front of the front axle.

Take care
Pantelis

"Nige" <nigel.inceFANNYFART@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3bt1q4F6m283sU1@individual.net...
> Eddie Green wrote:
> > Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames,
> > etc. Are they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing
> > vehicles ? and what about in France, is there any legislation there.
> > Thanks.
> > Eddie Green.

>
> Why do you want bullbars anyhow mate?
>
> I really cant see what purpose they serve for normal road driving. They

can make any accident damage a
> fair bit worse & are not exactly good if you hit a pedestrian. I can see

why they could be useful for off
> road driving.
>
> Anyone got any commenst about bullbars & have i missed the point etc?
>
> Nige
>
> --
> Subaru WRX (The Bitch)
>
> Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)
>
> '"They called him Jimmy the gent"
>
>



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Old 04-11-2005, 00:01   #10 (permalink)
Pantelis Giamarellos
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Bull Bars

Paul Hi,

you definately have a reason to have a bullbar then.
Were the dear steaks nice???

take care
Pantelis

"Paul S. Brown" <landies@geekstuff.tv> wrote in message
news:s51oi2-gor.ln1@snoopy.intra.geekstuff.me.uk...
> Nige wrote:
>
> > Eddie Green wrote:
> >> Can someone tell me the present law regarding Bull Bars, A Frames,
> >> etc. Are they permitted on new vehicles? to be fitted to existing
> >> vehicles ? and what about in France, is there any legislation there.
> >> Thanks.
> >> Eddie Green.

> >
> > Why do you want bullbars anyhow mate?
> >
> > I really cant see what purpose they serve for normal road driving. They
> > can make any accident damage a fair bit worse & are not exactly good if
> > you hit a pedestrian. I can see why they could be useful for off road
> > driving.
> >
> > Anyone got any commenst about bullbars & have i missed the point etc?
> >

>
> Agree about exacerbating a pedestrian impact - not good in those

situations.
>
> What they do provide is a decent mounting point for extra lighting which

is
> always useful with a Landies headlamps.
>
> I've also had them prevent major damage when one of the local deer decided
> it was a rabbit and to try and outstare my Disco. Without the bullbars I'd
> have had to replace a lot of the front offside corner of the car. As was I
> had to take it through a carwash.
>
> As per anything, there are arguments for and against. Personally I'd like
> *something* up front to catch large vegetation on my motor, but that's
> mostly used for offroad work and so the "road driving" thing doesn't

apply.
>
> P.
>
> --
> 1992 200 TDI Disco - heavily modified
> 1982 V8 Range Rover - heavily corroded
> 2000 Rover 75 - heavily driven
> 1993 Lexus LS400 - just plain heavy on fuel



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