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Old 06-16-2005, 04:01   #1 (permalink)
Dave Piggin
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Faraday cages

Hi Guys, Just to use my tuppence worth. A car isn't a faraday cage. Take
any hand held device used inside the vehicle like a hand held amateur
radio, PMR 446, a mobile telephone, gatso detectors, a gps satellite
detector and your on glass antenna for your radio, is inside as well.
All of these work within the vehicle, so any signal that can be received
can be transmitted. A car isn't an effective faraday cage atall.

All this business about introducing Darlings system is all hyped up.
There isn't a cat in hells chance in it taking off as there's far too
much in liberty stakes alone, never mind how and who will run it and
incidentally at what cost to us the public. There 's no doubt that we
all agree the roads are filling up rapidly but surely to try and resolve
the problem short term the guverment should resort to sorting out the
public transport sectors and addressing putting freight back on the
rails and sea, a job they should have solved years ago, but as all
parties do they've faffed and farted about instead of addressing the
real problems correctly and positively. Darling's got as much chance as
this working as I have platting fog. This guverment needs to get real.
Another note, just wonder how much Mr Darling got paid for thinking this
one up? Dave

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Old 06-16-2005, 04:01   #2 (permalink)
SimonJ
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Re: Faraday cages


>
> All this business about introducing Darlings system is all hyped up.
> There isn't a cat in hells chance in it taking off as there's far too
> much in liberty stakes alone, never mind how and who will run it and
> incidentally at what cost to us the public. There 's no doubt that we
> all agree the roads are filling up rapidly but surely to try and resolve
> the problem short term the guverment should resort to sorting out the
> public transport sectors and addressing putting freight back on the
> rails and sea, a job they should have solved years ago, but as all
> parties do they've faffed and farted about instead of addressing the
> real problems correctly and positively. Darling's got as much chance as
> this working as I have platting fog. This guverment needs to get real.
> Another note, just wonder how much Mr Darling got paid for thinking this
> one up? Dave
>

One thing which no one seems to have bothered mentioning, the GPS system is
a US military system, and they can introduce errors in it whenever they
please. What happens to the Darling system next time the US military put an
error in, and all cars will be seen to be driving along rivers, and through
fields etc?


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Old 06-16-2005, 06:01   #3 (permalink)
DavidM
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Re: Faraday cages

"SimonJ" <me@mine.net> wrote in message
news:d8rimi$4th$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-
> One thing which no one seems to have bothered mentioning, the GPS system

is
> a US military system, and they can introduce errors in it whenever they
> please. What happens to the Darling system next time the US military put

an
> error in, and all cars will be seen to be driving along rivers, and

through
> fields etc?


Would a river or field cost less or more than the M4 in rush hour traffic?
Maybe you could argue that you were driving from London to Bristol in fields
and rivers rather than on the motorway.
David


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Old 06-16-2005, 06:01   #4 (permalink)
Bigstoo
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Re: Faraday cages


it is true, the US Military control ALL the gps satellites around the
earth at this moment in time, and if one cold day they feel like
turning them all off, there is not a thing we (and the rest of the
world) can do about it.

however, europe is planning to send up its own gps satellites shortly,
not sure when, or how many though.


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Old 06-16-2005, 06:01   #5 (permalink)
Bigstoo
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Re: Faraday cages


i tell a lie. 2008 (thats the year we get them, not how many!!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4085651.stm


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Old 06-16-2005, 07:01   #6 (permalink)
beamendsltd
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Re: Faraday cages

In message <313030303837383542B154F9.00@zetnet.co.uk>
Dave Piggin <d.piggin@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Guys, Just to use my tuppence worth. A car isn't a faraday cage. Take
> any hand held device used inside the vehicle like a hand held amateur
> radio, PMR 446, a mobile telephone, gatso detectors, a gps satellite
> detector and your on glass antenna for your radio, is inside as well.
> All of these work within the vehicle, so any signal that can be received
> can be transmitted. A car isn't an effective faraday cage atall.
>
> All this business about introducing Darlings system is all hyped up.
> There isn't a cat in hells chance in it taking off as there's far too
> much in liberty stakes alone, never mind how and who will run it and
> incidentally at what cost to us the public. There 's no doubt that we
> all agree the roads are filling up rapidly but surely to try and resolve
> the problem short term the guverment should resort to sorting out the
> public transport sectors and addressing putting freight back on the
> rails and sea, a job they should have solved years ago, but as all
> parties do they've faffed and farted about instead of addressing the
> real problems correctly and positively. Darling's got as much chance as
> this working as I have platting fog. This guverment needs to get real.
> Another note, just wonder how much Mr Darling got paid for thinking this
> one up? Dave
>


It's not "they" that need to sort out public transport/rail freight,
it's us. We demand our goods next day, at the cheapest cost and this
cannot be done using rail. We need to change our expectations of
an instant lifestyle. If our mates car is off the road for some
reason we need to offer to help out (that includes employers too),
if their washing machine is on the blink we need to offer
assistance. We need to mix industrial/retail development with
residential (and be prepared to accept invonvenience as a result)
to avoid commuting to work. And so on........

But it ain't going to happen, until we're forced to, not by "them",
but by us realising we can't go on as we are.

Just my 2p's worth

Richard
--
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Old 06-16-2005, 07:01   #7 (permalink)
Martin Coombs
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Re: Faraday cages


"DavidM" <djm81@(I hate spam)cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:d8rre9$337$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> "SimonJ" <me@mine.net> wrote in message
> news:d8rimi$4th$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-
> > One thing which no one seems to have bothered mentioning, the GPS system

> is
> > a US military system, and they can introduce errors in it whenever they
> > please. What happens to the Darling system next time the US military put

> an
> > error in, and all cars will be seen to be driving along rivers, and

> through
> > fields etc?

>
> Would a river or field cost less or more than the M4 in rush hour traffic?
> Maybe you could argue that you were driving from London to Bristol in

fields
> and rivers rather than on the motorway.
> David
>
>

Another interesting by product of this technology will be the ability to
know what speed you were travelling at any given point on any given road at
any given time. Plenty of speeding fines automatically issued.
Issues to resolve will be over what distance a speeding fine will be
calculated?
For example, if you were to drive at 80mph along the entire length of a
motorway (highly unlikely on todays congested roads), would that be one
speeding fine or many thousands?
Could be banned before reaching the first junction!!
Then there is the problem that banned drivers will not generate revenue.
Martin


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Old 06-16-2005, 11:01   #8 (permalink)
Ian Rawlings
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Re: Faraday cages

On 2005-06-16, Dave Piggin <d.piggin@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

> Hi Guys, Just to use my tuppence worth. A car isn't a faraday
> cage. Take any hand held device used inside the vehicle like a hand
> held amateur radio, PMR 446, a mobile telephone, gatso detectors, a
> gps satellite detector and your on glass antenna for your radio, is
> inside as well.


A GPS needs to be in a position where it can get decent line of sight
to the satellites, that's the biggest problem. You can get GPS
bugging devices that you can clap on a car but they tend not to work
very well, and require a particularly sensitive GPS built to work from
satellite signals reflected from the ground. Any GPS-based tracking
device the government force us to use would have to be either
expensive to work on similar lines, or would have to have external
aerials or be displayed prominently. If they want a tamper-proof
black box then it would have to be displayed prominently behind
non-heated glass windows or covered entirely by plastic parts of the
car in a prominent position, e.g. inside the bumpers. Even then it
would be at a disadvantage in cities where satellite signals are often
weak, blocked by buildings and swamped with other noise.

I think we can forget the GPS-based systems, it's just a smokescreen.
It'll be roadside cameras or nothing as they already have the
technology and can tie it in with speeding, insurance dodging and tax
dodging all based on proven technology but will push the insurance
dodging angle with lurid stories of mown-down kiddies and other
save-the-fluffy-bunny stuff.

> All this business about introducing Darlings system is all hyped up.
> There isn't a cat in hells chance in it taking off as there's far too
> much in liberty stakes alone


Unfortunately I don't think the civil liberties issues wash with most
of the population, they're too dumb to worry about it and believe the
bogus justification. A dash of terrorism here, a bit of insurance
dodging there, a touch of avoiding traffic jams as a garnish and most
people will roll over. I get tired of hearing "what have you got to
hide", especially from people who then refuse to let me rifle through
their pockets, handbags and bedroom drawers.

--
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:02   #9 (permalink)
MVP
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Posts: n/a
Re: Faraday cages

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 17:48:44 +0100, Ian Rawlings
<news05@tarcus.org.uk> wrote:

>On 2005-06-16, Dave Piggin <d.piggin@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys, Just to use my tuppence worth. A car isn't a faraday
>> cage. Take any hand held device used inside the vehicle like a hand
>> held amateur radio, PMR 446, a mobile telephone, gatso detectors, a
>> gps satellite detector and your on glass antenna for your radio, is
>> inside as well.

>
>A GPS needs to be in a position where it can get decent line of sight
>to the satellites, that's the biggest problem. You can get GPS
>bugging devices that you can clap on a car but they tend not to work
>very well, and require a particularly sensitive GPS built to work from
>satellite signals reflected from the ground. Any GPS-based tracking
>device the government force us to use would have to be either
>expensive to work on similar lines, or would have to have external
>aerials or be displayed prominently. If they want a tamper-proof
>black box then it would have to be displayed prominently behind
>non-heated glass windows or covered entirely by plastic parts of the
>car in a prominent position, e.g. inside the bumpers. Even then it
>would be at a disadvantage in cities where satellite signals are often
>weak, blocked by buildings and swamped with other noise.
>
>I think we can forget the GPS-based systems, it's just a smokescreen.
>It'll be roadside cameras or nothing as they already have the
>technology and can tie it in with speeding, insurance dodging and tax
>dodging all based on proven technology but will push the insurance
>dodging angle with lurid stories of mown-down kiddies and other
>save-the-fluffy-bunny stuff.
>
>> All this business about introducing Darlings system is all hyped up.
>> There isn't a cat in hells chance in it taking off as there's far too
>> much in liberty stakes alone

>
>Unfortunately I don't think the civil liberties issues wash with most
>of the population, they're too dumb to worry about it and believe the
>bogus justification. A dash of terrorism here, a bit of insurance
>dodging there, a touch of avoiding traffic jams as a garnish and most
>people will roll over. I get tired of hearing "what have you got to
>hide", especially from people who then refuse to let me rifle through
>their pockets, handbags and bedroom drawers.


Eloquantly put on both points.


Regards.
Mark.
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Old 06-16-2005, 12:02   #10 (permalink)
Paul Brown
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Re: Faraday cages

Ian Rawlings wrote:

> On 2005-06-16, Dave Piggin <d.piggin@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys, Just to use my tuppence worth. A car isn't a faraday
>> cage. Take any hand held device used inside the vehicle like a hand
>> held amateur radio, PMR 446, a mobile telephone, gatso detectors, a
>> gps satellite detector and your on glass antenna for your radio, is
>> inside as well.

>
> A GPS needs to be in a position where it can get decent line of sight
> to the satellites, that's the biggest problem. You can get GPS
> bugging devices that you can clap on a car but they tend not to work
> very well, and require a particularly sensitive GPS built to work from
> satellite signals reflected from the ground. Any GPS-based tracking
> device the government force us to use would have to be either
> expensive to work on similar lines, or would have to have external
> aerials or be displayed prominently. If they want a tamper-proof
> black box then it would have to be displayed prominently behind
> non-heated glass windows or covered entirely by plastic parts of the
> car in a prominent position, e.g. inside the bumpers. Even then it
> would be at a disadvantage in cities where satellite signals are often
> weak, blocked by buildings and swamped with other noise.
>
> I think we can forget the GPS-based systems, it's just a smokescreen.
> It'll be roadside cameras or nothing as they already have the
> technology and can tie it in with speeding, insurance dodging and tax
> dodging all based on proven technology but will push the insurance
> dodging angle with lurid stories of mown-down kiddies and other
> save-the-fluffy-bunny stuff.
>


Unfortunately I think I know a system that will bypass a lot of this
problems and mentioned as much to one of my colleagues who is unfortunately
doing the technology eval for it.

There's no difficulty at all rigging a beacon on every road intersection and
just seeing which cars pass which beacons. The infrastructure largely
exists - you use lamp posts to mount the things and the uplink's the easy
bit. Don't have the cars do anything other than broadcast an identifier, or
if you're feeling sneaky rig it for challenge/response so that you can
secure the ID beacon.

Would be a hell of a lot cheaper, piece of piss to rig (IR will pass through
even heated windscreens!) and would still tell you which cars are using
which roads and when without needing to track the car down to the meter. It
will also give you measured distance calculations, so will act as a speed
trap in the same manner as SPECS does now.

Yes - I do do this stuff for a living - specifically, try and come up with
solutions for seemingly insurmountable problems. Sorry.

P.
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