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Old 09-02-2005, 10:01   #1 (permalink)
Tim Hobbs
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Re: OT: TIG Welder

On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:01:49 +0100, Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net>
wrote:

>How much should I expect to pay for a reasonably competent TIG welder
>that'll run on a domestic 13A supply and weld 4mm alluminium?


You haven't broken the steps on Grumble have you?....




--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'03 Volvo V70
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Old 09-02-2005, 11:01   #2 (permalink)
Rich
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Re: OT: TIG Welder

This is what I was considering asking so as it has been answered, how about
types of gas for ally and what sort of current would you need to weld 16g
stainless steel tube?

Rich

--
To reply remove " spam "
"Tim Hobbs" <tim@spam.com> wrote in message
news:tfvgh15hejcgs72bsccql5t0g2uepvr4ss@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:01:49 +0100, Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net>
> wrote:
>
> >How much should I expect to pay for a reasonably competent TIG welder
> >that'll run on a domestic 13A supply and weld 4mm alluminium?

>
> You haven't broken the steps on Grumble have you?....
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tim Hobbs
>
> '58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
> '77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
> '03 Volvo V70



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Old 09-02-2005, 12:01   #3 (permalink)
Badger
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Re: OT: TIG Welder


"Rich" <r3engineering@ntlworldspam.com> wrote in message
news:UJ%Re.2979$x4.93@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> This is what I was considering asking so as it has been answered, how
> about
> types of gas for ally and what sort of current would you need to weld 16g
> stainless steel tube?


Pure Argon gas; and around 100A should do with a bit of a safety margin for
duty cycle.
Badger.


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Old 09-02-2005, 13:01   #4 (permalink)
Rich
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Re: OT: TIG Welder

So you need more current to weld ally ( or make blobs on the floor ) is it
very hard and what is the foot pedal I have seen on some big welders?

Rich

--
To reply remove " spam "
"Badger" <brianhatton@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:dfa6gs$5jm$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Rich" <r3engineering@ntlworldspam.com> wrote in message
> news:UJ%Re.2979$x4.93@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> > This is what I was considering asking so as it has been answered, how
> > about
> > types of gas for ally and what sort of current would you need to weld

16g
> > stainless steel tube?

>
> Pure Argon gas; and around 100A should do with a bit of a safety margin

for
> duty cycle.
> Badger.
>
>



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Old 09-02-2005, 13:02   #5 (permalink)
Badger
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Re: OT: TIG Welder


"Rich" <r3engineering@ntlworldspam.com> wrote in message
news:ve1Se.5155$Ys5.1059@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> So you need more current to weld ally ( or make blobs on the floor ) is it
> very hard and what is the foot pedal I have seen on some big welders?


You need more current initially to "pool" the metal, due to ally dissipating
the heat through itself quicker than steel, that's why it's so easy to make
ally puddles on the floor! oops! The foot pedal is an alternative to the
button on the hand torch, on welders that have this, some cheaper machines
are what is referred to as "scratch-start", where you have to make contact
with the tungsten electrode to fire up the arc.
Badger.


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Old 09-03-2005, 09:01   #6 (permalink)
Nick Williams
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Posts: n/a
Re: OT: TIG Welder

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:19:01 +0100, Badger wrote
(in article <dfa8j5$k6d$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):

>
> "Rich" <r3engineering@ntlworldspam.com> wrote in message
> news:ve1Se.5155$Ys5.1059@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>> So you need more current to weld ally ( or make blobs on the floor ) is it
>> very hard and what is the foot pedal I have seen on some big welders?

>
> You need more current initially to "pool" the metal, due to ally dissipating
> the heat through itself quicker than steel, that's why it's so easy to make
> ally puddles on the floor! oops! The foot pedal is an alternative to the
> button on the hand torch, on welders that have this, some cheaper machines
> are what is referred to as "scratch-start", where you have to make contact
> with the tungsten electrode to fire up the arc.
> Badger.
>
>


The foot pedal is (usually) a current control so you can wind the current up
and down as you progress along the weld. IME this is pretty much essential
for welding ali since you need to put a lot of heat in to get the weld going,
and then back off one the material is hot or you'll make a hole. You also
need to be able to back the current off as you finish the weld or you'll end
up with a pit in the bead. Some machines will do this automatically, ramping
the current up when you push the button on the torch and down when you let
go, but the foot control gives you more flexibility.

There's loads of good welding advice on the net. Hang out on
sci.engr,joining.welding for a while and some good advice will come along
soon. Miller Electric and Lincoln Electric both have lots of stuff on their
websites, too, and there is also The Welding Institute.

Unless you are doing very long runs (feet of bead at a time) at currents over
about 150A you won't need a water cooled torch. I have a 200A TIG machine
(Lincoln) which will easily weld 4mm Ali plate and will run off a 13A socket
(although probably not forever at full output). It was quite a lot of money,
though (~2k).

Apart from the oxidisation issue with Ali (which is why you need AC) the big
problem is its heat conductivity. If you start with cold pieces of material,
they just soak the heat away from the weld so it's difficult to make the bead
flow properly. Once the surrounding material is hot enough for the
temperatures to stabilise then laying a pretty bead isn't much more difficult
than for steel, but if I'm only welding a short piece of material, I find
I've usually reached the end of the weld before this happens.

You can use the same shielding gas (pure argon) for TIG welding ali or
steels, but you will need zirconiated (red) electrodes for steels and
thoriated (white) electrodes for Ali. You're supposed to be able to use
ceriated (grey) electrodes for both, but I've not had a lot of success with
these.

I've never played with scratch start (aka 'lift-TIG') but I understand that
for welding Ali, life is a lot easier with HF start. With Ali, you really
want to avoid the contamination of the bead which comes from metal-to-metal
contact between the material and the electrode. AIUI, lift-TIG is the poor
man's option and anyone who has HF start will not use the lift-TIG option
even if they have it available.

The most important thing with TIG welding is to prepare everything carefully
in advance and be scrupulously clean, especially when working with ali. The
books all say this, and it's easy to ignore, but it is absolutely true and it
really makes a difference. I started out with a stick welder, progressed to
MIG and then on to TIG, and as I have moved from one process to the next, I
have learned (the hard way, of course) that each is less forgiving of
dirt/corrosion and poor fit parts than the last.

I'd also recommend Lincoln equipment . It's more expensive than the
Clarke/SIP equivalents, but it's professional gear, and I find the guy who
runs their Sheffield retail outfit very helpful and easy to deal with.

Nick

1990 90 2.5TD

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Old 09-04-2005, 03:01   #7 (permalink)
Rich
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Re: OT: TIG Welder

Ok, thanks for all the info will see what Father Christmas brings :-)

Rich


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Old 10-10-2005, 17:01   #8 (permalink)
Gaza
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Posts: n/a
Re: OT: TIG Welder

Sorry to be a late commer to this discussion, but i've been on holiday!!
- i have to agree with everything Nick has said.

I'm an amature who spent one years bonus on an AC tig set, i convinced
myself i MUST have one! - lol

I had been welding for 20 years (MIG - Gas), building cars etc and after
6 months of trying to stick alley together, ended up going to colledge
for a year to learn how to do it!, i wanted to send the set back!

A foot peddle is a must, i bought mine after the set and it just makes
life sooooooooooo much easier.

Mother - I'm in Sheffield (Handsworth) if you want to come and talk to
me and try out my set, drop me a line. I got mine ex demo from Lincoln
Welding supplies (attercliffe), and it came in about 2.2K for the lot,
but they did me a good deal.

I have just welded a cosworth cylinder head on a 150 Amp torch and i
didn't need the 250A max that my machine goes to either. all this and
off a normal 3 pin plug!

hope this helps?

Gary



Nick Williams wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:19:01 +0100, Badger wrote
> (in article <dfa8j5$k6d$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>):
>
>
>>"Rich" <r3engineering@ntlworldspam.com> wrote in message
>>news:ve1Se.5155$Ys5.1059@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>>>So you need more current to weld ally ( or make blobs on the floor ) is it
>>>very hard and what is the foot pedal I have seen on some big welders?

>>
>>You need more current initially to "pool" the metal, due to ally dissipating
>>the heat through itself quicker than steel, that's why it's so easy to make
>>ally puddles on the floor! oops! The foot pedal is an alternative to the
>>button on the hand torch, on welders that have this, some cheaper machines
>>are what is referred to as "scratch-start", where you have to make contact
>>with the tungsten electrode to fire up the arc.
>>Badger.
>>
>>

>
>
> The foot pedal is (usually) a current control so you can wind the current up
> and down as you progress along the weld. IME this is pretty much essential
> for welding ali since you need to put a lot of heat in to get the weld going,
> and then back off one the material is hot or you'll make a hole. You also
> need to be able to back the current off as you finish the weld or you'll end
> up with a pit in the bead. Some machines will do this automatically, ramping
> the current up when you push the button on the torch and down when you let
> go, but the foot control gives you more flexibility.
>
> There's loads of good welding advice on the net. Hang out on
> sci.engr,joining.welding for a while and some good advice will come along
> soon. Miller Electric and Lincoln Electric both have lots of stuff on their
> websites, too, and there is also The Welding Institute.
>
> Unless you are doing very long runs (feet of bead at a time) at currents over
> about 150A you won't need a water cooled torch. I have a 200A TIG machine
> (Lincoln) which will easily weld 4mm Ali plate and will run off a 13A socket
> (although probably not forever at full output). It was quite a lot of money,
> though (~2k).
>
> Apart from the oxidisation issue with Ali (which is why you need AC) the big
> problem is its heat conductivity. If you start with cold pieces of material,
> they just soak the heat away from the weld so it's difficult to make the bead
> flow properly. Once the surrounding material is hot enough for the
> temperatures to stabilise then laying a pretty bead isn't much more difficult
> than for steel, but if I'm only welding a short piece of material, I find
> I've usually reached the end of the weld before this happens.
>
> You can use the same shielding gas (pure argon) for TIG welding ali or
> steels, but you will need zirconiated (red) electrodes for steels and
> thoriated (white) electrodes for Ali. You're supposed to be able to use
> ceriated (grey) electrodes for both, but I've not had a lot of success with
> these.
>
> I've never played with scratch start (aka 'lift-TIG') but I understand that
> for welding Ali, life is a lot easier with HF start. With Ali, you really
> want to avoid the contamination of the bead which comes from metal-to-metal
> contact between the material and the electrode. AIUI, lift-TIG is the poor
> man's option and anyone who has HF start will not use the lift-TIG option
> even if they have it available.
>
> The most important thing with TIG welding is to prepare everything carefully
> in advance and be scrupulously clean, especially when working with ali. The
> books all say this, and it's easy to ignore, but it is absolutely true and it
> really makes a difference. I started out with a stick welder, progressed to
> MIG and then on to TIG, and as I have moved from one process to the next, I
> have learned (the hard way, of course) that each is less forgiving of
> dirt/corrosion and poor fit parts than the last.
>
> I'd also recommend Lincoln equipment . It's more expensive than the
> Clarke/SIP equivalents, but it's professional gear, and I find the guy who
> runs their Sheffield retail outfit very helpful and easy to deal with.
>
> Nick
>
> 1990 90 2.5TD
>


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