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Old 10-21-2005, 05:01   #1 (permalink)
Kieran Turner
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Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

Hi all,

A while ago I asked for suggestions about what might have suddenly started
causing me trouble when starting my Disco 300Tdi from cold. (It started
perfectly when hot.)

Lots of helpful tips came in about ways to check the glow plug system,
including the relay.

Some people suggested we look more broadly and consider the fuel system.

I came to suspect the fuel system - and learned that sometimes the o-ring on
the sedimenter can twist, causing leaks, and that the fuel tank sender can
rust (along with the boot floor) allowing air in without neccessarily
showing fuel. [Mine had rusted a lot, but changing it didn't fix the
problem.]

But it was none of these things. And I'm damn glad I finally found the
problem.

Turns out the back of the system holding the TIMING BELT is out of
alignment, and my belt - at just 45,000 miles old! - had almost broken up.
The timing was out by one or two teeth. I was amazed that this seemed to be
sensitive to whether the engine had recently been running - but it was.

Thought you'd like to know since it was the LAST thing I checked :(

Thanks again for all the advice previously.

Kieran Turner
(and hard-worked 300Tdi Disco)
www.aidconvoy.net


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Old 10-21-2005, 10:01   #2 (permalink)
m0bcg
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Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

kieran .
45,000 miles is way to far before changing 300tdi timing belt, should
be done 20,000 i think in reality .

i have changed mine twice in 12,000 miles and the previous belt had
lost 6mm width of belt in 12k miles , i had to do something about it
and find out the real source of the problem, which i did too !!

the modification kits to cure timing belt wear dont actually guarantee
curing the problem .

all they seem to do is add a flanged crank gear and a different idler
pulley in an attempt to stop the belt walking forward , but the belt
walks OFF the front of the injector pump gear and if you dont align
this gear properly all will probably be in vain fitting a modification
kit .

basically what you need to look at is the injector pump bracket on
its rear that bolts it to the engine , there is a bump of material on
the bracket that makes the injector pump push away from the cylinder
block at its rear, thus the belt walks forward and is only stopped from
coming off by the timing cover .

i found my pump gear was running out by 0.015" , ie the gear was
0.015" farther away from the rear timing cover when it was measured at
the most outboard area of travel compared to 180degs opposite side .

i filed the bump off the pump bracket , this allowed the pump to sit
square on the rear timing cover and not pushed away from engine .
with no belt installed i tightened the bolts from the pump bracket
to engine and also from bracket to injector pump.


after fitting new timing belt i checked the alignment of pump gear
again with a dial indicator and it was then running true .

if you do check and adjust this make sure you measure carefully
because there is almost 0.120" thou endfloat on the injector pump shaft
and if you rotate engine the gear needs to be sat in its seated
position or youl get false readings .

there is a lower belt torque now also, i think it was 9ft/lbs i used ,
torque it once, slacken off belt tensioner and torque again is best
option .

although landrover now say only torque up the belt tension once and be
done .


you can drill an 8/10mm hole at top of timing cover , facing in line
with front of belt, and then can measure depth in hole of belt to see
if belt moves forward, the timing cover will have rubbing marks on it
so is easy to work out where to drill hole , no need to plug hole
because its running dry inside the iming belt housing , although a
rubber grommet is easy to buy and fit . .

in 2500miles mine hasnt moved so far .

bear in mind that pump timing will alter very slightly every time you
change a timing belt, and full load fuel metering may need adjusting a
little , especially if performance drops off .

when you drive them everyday you will notice any change in performance
easily .

in fact i had to unscrew my full load metering adjustment on rear of
injector pump by a fair amount after installing new belt .

cheers , ian

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Old 10-21-2005, 11:01   #3 (permalink)
Hirsty's
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Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

Have heard that the torque settings from LR are incorrect and when applied
distort the casing causing wear ??


"m0bcg" <almacottage@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:1129908915.851956.134010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> kieran .
> 45,000 miles is way to far before changing 300tdi timing belt, should
> be done 20,000 i think in reality .
>
> i have changed mine twice in 12,000 miles and the previous belt had
> lost 6mm width of belt in 12k miles , i had to do something about it
> and find out the real source of the problem, which i did too !!
>
> the modification kits to cure timing belt wear dont actually guarantee
> curing the problem .
>
> all they seem to do is add a flanged crank gear and a different idler
> pulley in an attempt to stop the belt walking forward , but the belt
> walks OFF the front of the injector pump gear and if you dont align
> this gear properly all will probably be in vain fitting a modification
> kit .
>
> basically what you need to look at is the injector pump bracket on
> its rear that bolts it to the engine , there is a bump of material on
> the bracket that makes the injector pump push away from the cylinder
> block at its rear, thus the belt walks forward and is only stopped from
> coming off by the timing cover .
>
> i found my pump gear was running out by 0.015" , ie the gear was
> 0.015" farther away from the rear timing cover when it was measured at
> the most outboard area of travel compared to 180degs opposite side .
>
> i filed the bump off the pump bracket , this allowed the pump to sit
> square on the rear timing cover and not pushed away from engine .
> with no belt installed i tightened the bolts from the pump bracket
> to engine and also from bracket to injector pump.
>
>
> after fitting new timing belt i checked the alignment of pump gear
> again with a dial indicator and it was then running true .
>
> if you do check and adjust this make sure you measure carefully
> because there is almost 0.120" thou endfloat on the injector pump shaft
> and if you rotate engine the gear needs to be sat in its seated
> position or youl get false readings .
>
> there is a lower belt torque now also, i think it was 9ft/lbs i used ,
> torque it once, slacken off belt tensioner and torque again is best
> option .
>
> although landrover now say only torque up the belt tension once and be
> done .
>
>
> you can drill an 8/10mm hole at top of timing cover , facing in line
> with front of belt, and then can measure depth in hole of belt to see
> if belt moves forward, the timing cover will have rubbing marks on it
> so is easy to work out where to drill hole , no need to plug hole
> because its running dry inside the iming belt housing , although a
> rubber grommet is easy to buy and fit . .
>
> in 2500miles mine hasnt moved so far .
>
> bear in mind that pump timing will alter very slightly every time you
> change a timing belt, and full load fuel metering may need adjusting a
> little , especially if performance drops off .
>
> when you drive them everyday you will notice any change in performance
> easily .
>
> in fact i had to unscrew my full load metering adjustment on rear of
> injector pump by a fair amount after installing new belt .
>
> cheers , ian
>



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Old 10-21-2005, 11:01   #4 (permalink)
Hirsty's
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Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi


"Hirsty's" <magnum.458@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Ve86f.7382$65.4818@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...
> Have heard that the torque settings from LR are incorrect and when applied
> distort the casing causing wear ??
>
>



Apologies for previous top post


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Old 10-21-2005, 12:02   #5 (permalink)
Tom Woods
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Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:12:51 +0000 (UTC), "Kieran Turner"
<kieran@SPAMTRAP.kemptown.org> wrote:

>Thought you'd like to know since it was the LAST thing I checked :(


Its always the last thing you check!

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Old 10-21-2005, 15:01   #6 (permalink)
Austin Shackles
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Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

On or around 21 Oct 2005 08:35:15 -0700, "m0bcg"
<almacottage@btopenworld.com> enlightened us thusly:

>kieran .
>45,000 miles is way to far before changing 300tdi timing belt, should
>be done 20,000 i think in reality .
>


book says 36000 in extreme conditions and 72000 otherwise. Personally, I
wouldn't let it run more'n 36000 but it depends on the engine. The 300 TDi
here only chews it very slightly - no evidence that it's been modded,
either..

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to
a great lie than to a small one" Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
from Mein Kampf, Ch 10
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Old 10-22-2005, 07:01   #7 (permalink)
Paul
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Posts: n/a
Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi


"Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
news:mrjil15l05fakggunhv5qc3esmllobimhb@4ax.com...
> On or around 21 Oct 2005 08:35:15 -0700, "m0bcg"
> <almacottage@btopenworld.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>kieran .
>>45,000 miles is way to far before changing 300tdi timing belt, should
>>be done 20,000 i think in reality .
>>

>
> book says 36000 in extreme conditions and 72000 otherwise. Personally, I
> wouldn't let it run more'n 36000 but it depends on the engine. The 300
> TDi
> here only chews it very slightly - no evidence that it's been modded,
> either..
>
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to
> a great lie than to a small one" Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
> from Mein Kampf, Ch 10


is there a way of checking the belt via an inspection hole or something? btw
its a 300tdi.


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Old 10-22-2005, 20:01   #8 (permalink)
Kieran Turner
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Posts: n/a
Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

"Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
news:mrjil15l05fakggunhv5qc3esmllobimhb@4ax.com...
> On or around 21 Oct 2005 08:35:15 -0700, "m0bcg"
> <almacottage@btopenworld.com> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>kieran .
>>45,000 miles is way to far before changing 300tdi timing belt, should
>>be done 20,000 i think in reality .
>>

>
> book says 36000 in extreme conditions and 72000 otherwise. Personally, I
> wouldn't let it run more'n 36000 but it depends on the engine. The 300
> TDi
> here only chews it very slightly - no evidence that it's been modded,
> either..


Mine certainly won't be going more than 36,000 before I check it again! I'd
been planning on around 50k as a safe compromise... oh well.

Why have Land Rover never revised this estimate downwards in the light of
real-world vehicle evidence?

K


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Old 10-23-2005, 03:01   #9 (permalink)
Austin Shackles
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Posts: n/a
Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

On or around Sun, 23 Oct 2005 02:40:27 +0100, "Kieran Turner"
<kieran@SPAMTRAP.kemptown.org> enlightened us thusly:

>"Austin Shackles" <austinNOSPAM@ddol-las.net> wrote in message
>news:mrjil15l05fakggunhv5qc3esmllobimhb@4ax.com...
>> On or around 21 Oct 2005 08:35:15 -0700, "m0bcg"
>> <almacottage@btopenworld.com> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>kieran .
>>>45,000 miles is way to far before changing 300tdi timing belt, should
>>>be done 20,000 i think in reality .
>>>

>>
>> book says 36000 in extreme conditions and 72000 otherwise. Personally, I
>> wouldn't let it run more'n 36000 but it depends on the engine. The 300
>> TDi
>> here only chews it very slightly - no evidence that it's been modded,
>> either..

>
>Mine certainly won't be going more than 36,000 before I check it again! I'd
>been planning on around 50k as a safe compromise... oh well.
>
>Why have Land Rover never revised this estimate downwards in the light of
>real-world vehicle evidence?


If I were being cynical, I'd say because the typical failures happen out of
warranty.

They did of course have a succession of mods to the engine which are
supposed to address the belt wear issue.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Beyond the horizon of the place we lived when we were young / In a world
of magnets and miracles / Our thoughts strayed constantly and without
boundary / The ringing of the Division bell had begun. Pink Floyd (1994)
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Old 10-23-2005, 04:01   #10 (permalink)
Marc Draper
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Re: Resolved: difficult cold starts 300Tdi

In message <435aea11@news1.homechoice.co.uk>, Kieran Turner
<kieran@SPAMTRAP.kemptown.org> writes
>Mine certainly won't be going more than 36,000 before I check it again! I'd
>been planning on around 50k as a safe compromise... oh well.



After I have fitted the mod kits (if needed) I change them at 60,000
miles and have never been caught short yet. Some are now in their 3rd
belt with no breaks.

--
Marc Draper
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