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Old 10-21-2005, 14:01   #1 (permalink)
Graham Carter
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TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

Hi folks,

I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.

Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling settings
different? Or something else completely different?

The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and teh
car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had been
set up incorrectly after the rebuild?

Incidentally, inital problem at first was sticking fuel coff solenoid, but
when my mechanic took the solenoid out, he found chunks of metal. When they
repaired the injector, they gave me the cam disc and rollers, and it looked
like someone had been hitting them with a hammer! It's amazing the car kept
going. Says a lot for the reliability of the 300Tdi. The pump got damaged
by a load of fuel out of some drums (can't get fuel at service stations now
in Zimbabwe), which were comtaminated with water. Both sedimenter and main
fuel filter were full of water at one stage, and injector pump also had
quite a lot - car didn't run very well at that time!

Anyway, be interested in your comments on difference between Disco and
Defender tuning.

Cheers!
Graham Carter
Harare
Zimbabwe


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Old 10-21-2005, 15:01   #2 (permalink)
Pantelis Giamarellos
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Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

Graham Hi,

AFAIK it was not the 300Tdi but the 200Tdi that was tuned slightly lower on
Defenders (107 bhp instead of 111 bhp on Discos) but that was on the first
years of production of this engine.

Then it was tuned for the same power output and when the 300Tdi was
introduced in 1995 it was tuned for the same power and torque output on both
Discos and Defenders.

The introduction of an automatic gearbox on Discovery vehicles also saw the
application of a slightly more powerful engine variant of the 300Tdi (122 or
124 bhp if I remember well) which was also fitted with the electronicaly
regulated fuel pump and this additional power (and torque) came from
different tuning of the module so as to compensate for the power that an
automatic gearbox robs from the engine unless the torque converter is fully
locked up.

----------

The problem with your fuel pump may be due to different (not so succesful)
setting of the timing of the pump relative to the engine.
Or maybe your pump needs to be "tweaked" either by turning the diaphragm, or
the torx bolt on its head or the rear screw.


Hope this helps.

Take care
Pantelis

"Graham Carter" <grahamcarter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djbj8e$651$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> Hi folks,
>
> I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
> Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.
>
> Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling settings
> different? Or something else completely different?
>
> The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and teh
> car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had been
> set up incorrectly after the rebuild?
>
> Incidentally, inital problem at first was sticking fuel coff solenoid, but
> when my mechanic took the solenoid out, he found chunks of metal. When

they
> repaired the injector, they gave me the cam disc and rollers, and it

looked
> like someone had been hitting them with a hammer! It's amazing the car

kept
> going. Says a lot for the reliability of the 300Tdi. The pump got

damaged
> by a load of fuel out of some drums (can't get fuel at service stations

now
> in Zimbabwe), which were comtaminated with water. Both sedimenter and

main
> fuel filter were full of water at one stage, and injector pump also had
> quite a lot - car didn't run very well at that time!
>
> Anyway, be interested in your comments on difference between Disco and
> Defender tuning.
>
> Cheers!
> Graham Carter
> Harare
> Zimbabwe
>
>



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Old 10-21-2005, 15:01   #3 (permalink)
Phillip Simpson
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

Hi Graham,
I'm going through the same process of comparing the 300 Tdi in
Disco and Defender.

The Defender is much slower mid to top rpm, which leads me to suspect
the difference is in the inlet side. If you look at the metal pipe
that connects the air intake to the intercooler you will see that the
pipe has been indented near the passenger wheel guard. This reduction
in the ID of the pipe will impact the performance.

I plan therefore to replace this pipe with a pipe of the same OD but
without the indented section. I will also port match the inlet
manifold to the head. Have seen a lot of 300 (Disco and Defender)
where the inlet manifold has oval shaped ports which don't match the
round ones on the head-in some cases as bad as 2.1mm of excess metal.
Removing this and make the inlet manifold ports the same as the head
makes a surprising difference.

Cheers


Phillip Simpson


On Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:33:11 +0200, "Graham Carter"
<grahamcarter@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Hi folks,
>
>I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
>Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.
>
>Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling settings
>different? Or something else completely different?
>
>The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and teh
>car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had been
>set up incorrectly after the rebuild?
>
>Incidentally, inital problem at first was sticking fuel coff solenoid, but
>when my mechanic took the solenoid out, he found chunks of metal. When they
>repaired the injector, they gave me the cam disc and rollers, and it looked
>like someone had been hitting them with a hammer! It's amazing the car kept
>going. Says a lot for the reliability of the 300Tdi. The pump got damaged
>by a load of fuel out of some drums (can't get fuel at service stations now
>in Zimbabwe), which were comtaminated with water. Both sedimenter and main
>fuel filter were full of water at one stage, and injector pump also had
>quite a lot - car didn't run very well at that time!
>
>Anyway, be interested in your comments on difference between Disco and
>Defender tuning.
>
>Cheers!
>Graham Carter
>Harare
>Zimbabwe
>


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Old 10-21-2005, 16:01   #4 (permalink)
Huw
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender


"Graham Carter" <grahamcarter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djbj8e$651$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> Hi folks,
>
> I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
> Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.
>
> Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling settings
> different? Or something else completely different?
>
> The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and teh
> car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had been
> set up incorrectly after the rebuild?
>


Apart from the position of the turbo I doubt there is much difference. In
fact I would hazard a guess that any paper difference in power output is
purely a marketing strategy.

As far as reconditioning the pump goes, I have found a less than 50:50
chance of the repair shop getting it right first time. I have often had to
return pumps at worse and alter the fuelling myself at best when a repaired
pump is reinstalled. The last one I did was a Delphi four cylinder rotary
pump where the maximum no-load speed was set 25% short of what it should be.
Easily sorted but it should have been right first time. That one was also
due to water damage.

Huw


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Old 10-21-2005, 16:01   #5 (permalink)
EMB
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

Huw wrote:

> As far as reconditioning the pump goes, I have found a less than 50:50
> chance of the repair shop getting it right first time. I have often had to
> return pumps at worse and alter the fuelling myself at best when a repaired
> pump is reinstalled. The last one I did was a Delphi four cylinder rotary
> pump where the maximum no-load speed was set 25% short of what it should be.
> Easily sorted but it should have been right first time.


There's no excuse for pumps coming back wrongly calibrated - it takes
less than half an hour to run one up on the test bech and calibrate it
properly. In the overall cost of rebuilding a pump with a new cam,
rollers and elements the cost of calibrating it is insignificant.

If you're getting pumps back that haven't been calibrated correctly then
start looking for another firm to rebuild them for you in future.



--
EMB
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Old 10-21-2005, 17:01   #6 (permalink)
Huw
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender


"EMB" <embtwo@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:djbq8q$4k2$1@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> Huw wrote:
>
>> As far as reconditioning the pump goes, I have found a less than 50:50
>> chance of the repair shop getting it right first time. I have often had
>> to return pumps at worse and alter the fuelling myself at best when a
>> repaired pump is reinstalled. The last one I did was a Delphi four
>> cylinder rotary pump where the maximum no-load speed was set 25% short of
>> what it should be. Easily sorted but it should have been right first
>> time.

>
> There's no excuse for pumps coming back wrongly calibrated - it takes less
> than half an hour to run one up on the test bech and calibrate it
> properly. In the overall cost of rebuilding a pump with a new cam,
> rollers and elements the cost of calibrating it is insignificant.
>
> If you're getting pumps back that haven't been calibrated correctly then
> start looking for another firm to rebuild them for you in future.
>


Easy enough to say but the local LSUK was so bad they had to give it up.
There are three or four other companies in S. Wales approved to do warranty
repairs on Lucas/Delphi and Bosch equipment and I use two on occasion.
It is my experience that Delphi pump equipped engines such as Perkins vary
in power up or down by 15% from spec from the factory and in most cases
require dyno testing and tuning at pdi. This has always been the case from
the days of the old DPA pump as fitted to series Land Rovers.
Thank goodness for the mechanically simple computer controlled injection
equipment which are nothing if not consistent in their calibration and
performance.

Huw


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Old 10-21-2005, 19:01   #7 (permalink)
EMB
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

Huw wrote:
>
> Easy enough to say but the local LSUK was so bad they had to give it up.
> There are three or four other companies in S. Wales approved to do warranty
> repairs on Lucas/Delphi and Bosch equipment and I use two on occasion.
> It is my experience that Delphi pump equipped engines such as Perkins vary
> in power up or down by 15% from spec from the factory and in most cases
> require dyno testing and tuning at pdi.


Now I've left the automotive trade I generally rebuild my own pumps and
calibrate them myself on the test bench at the local diesel injection
specialists. They rebuild a lot of CAV/Lucas/Delphi pumps and have no
trouble at all getting them calibrated correctly before they leave the
premises - they have done all my pump rebuild work for the last 20 years
and I've never had a problem with a lack of power on a rebuilt pump.

Probably what helps is that they are a smallish independant outfit who
carry the can themselves for any mistakes they make. They can however
do warranty work as they do all the overflow stuff the local Bosch and
Delphi agents can't fit in their schedule. And they are reasonably
priced - I pay under 20 quid each for rebuilt injectors and the last
pump they did for me came to well under 300 quid.


--
EMB
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Old 10-22-2005, 02:01   #8 (permalink)
beamendsltd
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Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

In message <3rt7r9Fl4etvU1@individual.net>
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
> "Graham Carter" <grahamcarter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:djbj8e$651$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
> > Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.
> >
> > Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling settings
> > different? Or something else completely different?
> >
> > The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and teh
> > car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had been
> > set up incorrectly after the rebuild?
> >

>
> Apart from the position of the turbo I doubt there is much difference. In
> fact I would hazard a guess that any paper difference in power output is
> purely a marketing strategy.
>


Since the Defender and Discovery have different overall gear ratio's
(The Discovery is raised to give better "top end") and radically
differing aerodynamics, then without using the same engine and box in
both vehicles a comparison is relatively meaningless.
Try a Discovery transfer box in a Defender 110 - goes like stink -
eventually, but tows bugger all!

The figures quoted in "the literature" will be very carefully selected
(i.e. at a particular rpm/road speed) to get the best marketing figures,
and insurance group.

> As far as reconditioning the pump goes, I have found a less than 50:50
> chance of the repair shop getting it right first time. I have often had to
> return pumps at worse and alter the fuelling myself at best when a repaired
> pump is reinstalled. The last one I did was a Delphi four cylinder rotary
> pump where the maximum no-load speed was set 25% short of what it should be.
> Easily sorted but it should have been right first time. That one was also
> due to water damage.


>
> Huw
>
>


Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
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Old 10-22-2005, 02:01   #9 (permalink)
Huw
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender


"beamendsltd" <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:4451c1bd4d%beamendsltd@btconnect.com...
> In message <3rt7r9Fl4etvU1@individual.net>
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Graham Carter" <grahamcarter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:djbj8e$651$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
>> > Hi folks,
>> >
>> > I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
>> > Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.
>> >
>> > Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling
>> > settings
>> > different? Or something else completely different?
>> >
>> > The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and
>> > teh
>> > car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had
>> > been
>> > set up incorrectly after the rebuild?
>> >

>>
>> Apart from the position of the turbo I doubt there is much difference. In
>> fact I would hazard a guess that any paper difference in power output is
>> purely a marketing strategy.
>>

>
> Since the Defender and Discovery have different overall gear ratio's
> (The Discovery is raised to give better "top end") and radically
> differing aerodynamics, then without using the same engine and box in
> both vehicles a comparison is relatively meaningless.
> Try a Discovery transfer box in a Defender 110 - goes like stink -
> eventually, but tows bugger all!
>
> The figures quoted in "the literature" will be very carefully selected
> (i.e. at a particular rpm/road speed) to get the best marketing figures,
> and insurance group.
>


What I mean is that engines for both vehicles probably come with the same
horsepower but LR choose to market the defender with a very slightly lower
power on paper only. Maybe the manifold arrangement is responsible for some
slight difference mind you.

Huw


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Old 10-22-2005, 08:01   #10 (permalink)
beamendsltd
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: TDi engines, difference between Discovery and Defender

In message <3rub0iFljdvfU1@individual.net>
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

>
> "beamendsltd" <beamendsltd@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:4451c1bd4d%beamendsltd@btconnect.com...
> > In message <3rt7r9Fl4etvU1@individual.net>
> > "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> "Graham Carter" <grahamcarter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:djbj8e$651$1@domitilla.aioe.org...
> >> > Hi folks,
> >> >
> >> > I know that the 300 Tdi engine is tuned differently in the Defender and
> >> > Discovry - it produces about 10% less power inhe Defender.
> >> >
> >> > Is this done by a different injection pump, or are the fuelling
> >> > settings
> >> > different? Or something else completely different?
> >> >
> >> > The reason I ask is that I have just had my injector pump rebuilt, and
> >> > teh
> >> > car seems to be lacking performance. I was wondering if the pump had
> >> > been
> >> > set up incorrectly after the rebuild?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Apart from the position of the turbo I doubt there is much difference. In
> >> fact I would hazard a guess that any paper difference in power output is
> >> purely a marketing strategy.
> >>

> >
> > Since the Defender and Discovery have different overall gear ratio's
> > (The Discovery is raised to give better "top end") and radically
> > differing aerodynamics, then without using the same engine and box in
> > both vehicles a comparison is relatively meaningless.
> > Try a Discovery transfer box in a Defender 110 - goes like stink -
> > eventually, but tows bugger all!
> >
> > The figures quoted in "the literature" will be very carefully selected
> > (i.e. at a particular rpm/road speed) to get the best marketing figures,
> > and insurance group.
> >

>
> What I mean is that engines for both vehicles probably come with the same
> horsepower but LR choose to market the defender with a very slightly lower
> power on paper only. Maybe the manifold arrangement is responsible for some
> slight difference mind you.
>
> Huw
>
>


I agree - LR don't even (or perhaps didn't) give a 0-60 figure for
110's (though they did for 90's) - "Interesting, that" observed the
previous NFU rep in this area.......

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk sales@beamends-lrspares.co.uk
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
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