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Old 09-05-2005, 04:01   #1 (permalink)
Jon
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TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

Ive read of late quite a bit about running diesel engines on Vegetable
oil. Some people seem to say just do it 100%, though this i believe
requires a bit of engine tweaking, others make a 5% - 10% diesel / oil
mix (only 5-10% oil), pour it in and just turn the key.

Different oils seem to perform better than others and non-direct
injection systems are supposedly better than direct injection due to
the higher temperatures required with DI.

I am looking at this purley from a cost saving point of view...

I have a 200Tdi 90 and my friend has a 300Tdi disco

Has anyone or is anyone running on vegetable oil? Which brand / type
of oil?

I know strictly there are tax issues but Im not concerned about those
in this thread, only interested in longevity of engines and pitfalls
and problems associated.


Thanks
Jon

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Old 09-05-2005, 05:01   #2 (permalink)
Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

Jon <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

>I know strictly there are tax issues


Really? In germany just the low sales tax for food is applied, 7% :-)
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:02   #3 (permalink)
Samuel
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???


"Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS" <ralph@radio-link.net> wrote in message
news:ipboh116a7sen65c5f7lbk4tj538jhn1ne@4ax.com...
> Jon <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >I know strictly there are tax issues

>
> Really? In germany just the low sales tax for food is applied, 7% :-)


The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of vegetable
oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate, and send the
money off in a little envelope to parliament house to pay for their bloody
cocktail parties.

When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
start using these alternative fuels.

anyway, back to the point, vegetable oil can be run straight (as in straight
from the bottle you keep in your pantry) if it is pre-heated to about 80
degrees C, and used in an indirect injection diesel motor. as you stated
jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil must
be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the injectors
better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have web
addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.

Sam.


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Old 09-05-2005, 06:02   #4 (permalink)
Steve Taylor
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

Samuel wrote:

>
> The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of vegetable
> oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate

Its "only" 28p /litre AFAIK, which IS less than the petrol duty
> When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
> start using these alternative fuels.

Abso-'kin-lutely.
> I have web addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.

Please, that would be interesting, we have the forms from the excise to
pay up, but we were only intending to run mixed 66/33.

Steve
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Old 09-05-2005, 06:02   #5 (permalink)
Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

"Samuel" <samuelmcgregor@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of vegetable
>oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate, and send the
>money off in a little envelope to parliament house to pay for their bloody
>cocktail parties.


They could wait forever, when I would be asked to do so :-)

>When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
>start using these alternative fuels.


In germany they even do not encourage the peoople any more to use bio
diesel, "rapsmethylester" is the german word for the stuff. When this
stuff was more expensive, they told to spend those few cents for the
environment, but nowadays, when costs for fuel explode and biodiesel
is much cheaper, they do not encourage to use it any more; it just
does not bring enough money :-(

>anyway, back to the point, vegetable oil can be run straight (as in straight
>from the bottle you keep in your pantry) if it is pre-heated to about 80
>degrees C, and used in an indirect injection diesel motor. as you stated


Our Defender 90 2.5TD just runs with it like with normal diesel during
the summer time.

>jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil must
>be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the injectors
>better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have web
>addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
>
>Sam.
>

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Old 09-05-2005, 06:03   #6 (permalink)
Samuel
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???


"Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS" <ralph@radio-link.net> wrote in message
news:j7eoh1d64538qr0iharth3cqfsru9cl9c4@4ax.com...
> "Samuel" <samuelmcgregor@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
> >The mongrel beuruecrats reckon that people that make fuel out of

vegetable
> >oil should tax themselves at the standard petrol excise rate, and send

the
> >money off in a little envelope to parliament house to pay for their

bloody
> >cocktail parties.

>
> They could wait forever, when I would be asked to do so :-)
>
> >When in fact the dopey bastards should be encouraging all and sundry to
> >start using these alternative fuels.

>
> In germany they even do not encourage the peoople any more to use bio
> diesel, "rapsmethylester" is the german word for the stuff. When this
> stuff was more expensive, they told to spend those few cents for the
> environment, but nowadays, when costs for fuel explode and biodiesel
> is much cheaper, they do not encourage to use it any more; it just
> does not bring enough money :-(
>
> >anyway, back to the point, vegetable oil can be run straight (as in

straight
> >from the bottle you keep in your pantry) if it is pre-heated to about 80
> >degrees C, and used in an indirect injection diesel motor. as you stated

>
> Our Defender 90 2.5TD just runs with it like with normal diesel during
> the summer time.
>
> >jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil

must
> >be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the

injectors
> >better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have

web
> >addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
> >
> >Sam.
> >


G'day Ralph.

i think you're confusing bio-diesel with straight vegetable oil, or SVO for
short.

# bio diesel is vegetable oil that has gone through some process
(trans-estrification or something) which seperates the oil into biodiesel
and glycerine. this stuff can be use in most diesel motors without any
modification.

# SVO is just that. nothing done to it, just the oil that is pressed out
of vegies. to run any diesel motor on this, the oil must be pre-heated and
flushed out with diesel (or bio-diesel) before turning motor off to prevent
the oil congealing in the pump etc.

hope this is helpful, and i'll get those websites tomorrow.

Sam.


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Old 09-05-2005, 07:01   #7 (permalink)
Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

"Samuel" <samuelmcgregor@optusnet.com.au> wrote:


>G'day Ralph.
>
>i think you're confusing bio-diesel with straight vegetable oil, or SVO for
>short.


No, I did not, because it is the only "vegetable" fuel what is
relatively available throughout the whole contry, and the only "bio
fuel" recognised as such by the politicians.

We use normal "svo" oil, without going through some processing, it is
the same stuff you put on your salad, and taxes on it are the low
german food sales tax.

The bio diesel stuff has some solvent characteristics and may cause
trouble with some plastic parts in the fuel system, so we did not yet
dare using it with our Defender. Normal diesel is almost 1.20 EUR
these days, bio diesel is from 90ct up to 1EUR-something, svo is 70ct.

When we did not find a gas station but a super market, it was pure fun
buying 15 bottles of salad oil and refilling the car with it on the
parking lot :-) We caught some strange looks, as you can imagine.

>Sam.


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Old 09-05-2005, 07:01   #8 (permalink)
Jon
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???


>
>>jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil must
>>be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the injectors
>>better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have web
>>addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
>>
>>Sam.
>>


Looks like there are a few knowledgable people in this topic around
here...

Generally speaking, it would seem as though some form of pre-heater is
required to heat the oil before it hits the injector pump to run 100%
oil, along with a 2 tank system to allow the running on pure diesel at
the start and end of each journey. I will discount this idea then.



Working on the assumption that some saving in 's is better than no
saving:-)

Relating back to 200 & 300tdi's, these are direct injection units and
this seemingly is not ideal for 100% oil motors. But can vegetuble
oil from the supermarket be used as a Diesel Oil mix (5% - 10%) with
no modifications? Even 5 Litres into every tank on my 90 will make a
significant saving over a year.

Jon

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Old 09-05-2005, 08:01   #9 (permalink)
puffernutter
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

Thanks for that question, it was one that I was planning to ask!

I have a 200Tdi and I am hoping to change to a Defender diesel (not
sure what age yet). The reason is two fold - more room required for
dogs and the 200Tdi doesn't have enough space for the dogs and a
separate 5 gallon diesel tank (see comment later).

I have found one website that offers a conversion for around 475
(DIY). The only thing you need to find room for is a separate 5 gallon
tank of diesel that is used to start and run the engine until the
vegetable oil is hot/fluid enough.

I was planning on approaching our local chippies for their waste oil.
It is suggeted that it is filtered by a 1 micron filter. Does anybody
have any experince with using re-cycled oil and whether or not chippies
will charge you for it, give it away willingly or refuse to as they
have to meet government requirements for recycling?

Cheers

Peter

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Old 09-05-2005, 08:01   #10 (permalink)
Pantelis Giamarellos
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Re: TDI Engines and Vegetable Oil - Can it be used...successfully???

Jon and other fellow listers Hi from Greece,

I have been using waste olive oil from our house and my wife's mother house
for more than 3 years now.
My wife collects the oil in big glass bottles and lets it stay motionless
for around a month (or at least one week).
She then filters it using a filtering cloth and they we add it to the fuel
tank up to a 10% ratio (10% waste olive oil and 90% diesel fuel)

I have no problem with the fuel pump, injectors of the way the engine
operates but I avoid using this 10% of olive oil when temperature is
expected to fall below 5 degrees Celsius (which very seldom does in the area
of Greece where I live).

The engine actually operates more smoothly, seems to pull better and yes you
can slightly smell of fried potatoes from the exhaust even with just a 10%
of wasted olive oil.

Now that diesel prices have sky rocketed here in Greece (1.020 Euros/lt.)
using the waste olive oil (or any other wasted oil from our kitchen) makes
even more sense.

Take care
Pantelis


"Jon" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:fvhoh1lcfiol7t6ucbt1b74jgnrpo0e69s@4ax.com...
>
> >
> >>jon, apparently direct injection motors are not as forgiving. The oil

must
> >>be heated to reduce its viscosity and allow it to flow through the

injectors
> >>better. there are a number of firms that offer kits to do this. i have

web
> >>addresses if your interested, just have to find them again.
> >>
> >>Sam.
> >>

>
> Looks like there are a few knowledgable people in this topic around
> here...
>
> Generally speaking, it would seem as though some form of pre-heater is
> required to heat the oil before it hits the injector pump to run 100%
> oil, along with a 2 tank system to allow the running on pure diesel at
> the start and end of each journey. I will discount this idea then.
>
>
>
> Working on the assumption that some saving in 's is better than no
> saving:-)
>
> Relating back to 200 & 300tdi's, these are direct injection units and
> this seemingly is not ideal for 100% oil motors. But can vegetuble
> oil from the supermarket be used as a Diesel Oil mix (5% - 10%) with
> no modifications? Even 5 Litres into every tank on my 90 will make a
> significant saving over a year.
>
> Jon
>



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