EL Fairmont starting problem - HELP! - Page 2 - Ford Forums - Mustang Forum, Ford Trucks, Ford Focus and Ford Cars
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post #11 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-23-02, 08:46 AM
Two SC 61's = trouble
 
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Sounds like a rich condition to me seeing you have to put throttle 1/2 way.Maybe injectors are bleeding down while engine off, correct injectors??.Another ?? the diaphram in your fuel pressure reg, if r/s leaks fuel into manifold ??? Ah the earth position I stated was for an eight but I gues six's similar..


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post #12 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-23-02, 03:51 PM
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Hi all,

Paul c, sounds like a familiar problem. I purchased an AUI Falcon S in manual in September 1999, car had starting problems similar to yours. In addition it would sometimes fire up and then stall after 10-15 seconds. Ford spent 6 months and over $12000 in spare parts under warranty to try an rectify the problem - they replaced every major ignition, fuel, and electrical component, and the car still had starting problems. Ford hired a Fairmont for me to drive from Avis - which i had for close to 3 months. Head office even sent up an engineer to try and resolve the problem. Now call me fussy but i'de expect a new car to start first go, so after months of letterwriting and countless calls to the FORD Customer assistance centre, a decision was made. The car was written off and replaced with a new one. Lucky for me during the repair process the AUII was introduced, and it was impossible to find a new AUI S in manual, So a brand new AUII S was issued. No starting problems with this one. The moral of this story, and i hate to do this to you, don't put too much faith in ford mechanics, you could have a long and hard road ahead of you. According to my local ford dealer, the car is now a ford company car in melbourne, and still experiences the problem- in the words of the mechanic at the dealer "Its just a freak car!!!!!"

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post #13 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-23-02, 07:40 PM
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how strong is the spark? they should have a spark intensity measuring tool that you put on a plug lead and wind it out to see how far the spark will travel, measuring the voltage and its ability to fire the fuel/air mix.

also, what is the battery voltage when cranking? i dont know about falcons but on V6 rodeos if the battery voltage drops below 9V then the computer will not pulse the injectors and the car wont start, creating the same kind of complaint as you have - its a very long shot there i am pretty sure that falcons dont do that.

what kind of fuel consumption do you get? is it normal or a bit high? have you put a noid light into one of the injector plugs while the car is faulting?

what is the base timing? 30 degrees sounds way way way too much, i thought base for a V8 was about 12 degrees?

i would have blamed the immobilisesr if it was still fitted as heat can do funny things to electrical components, bit since it is not fitted any longer that shoots my guess down in flames.

is the wiring under the dash a shitfight or is it kind of neat?

this is a bloody strange problem!!!!

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post #14 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-23-02, 08:19 PM
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very strange
we had similar issues with a AU1 XR8 went through replacing everything turned out to be a dodgy wiring harness.

but if it only does it in high temps then...???
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post #15 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-23-02, 08:59 PM
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Sell it on a cold day so it starts when people come to look at it.
 
post #16 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-25-02, 05:50 AM Thread Starter
do YOU have rubber?
 
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Hi again everyone... well it's sort of relieving to hear that I'm not alone with this one. It's hard to believe that these cars leave the factory in this state! Although Ford must think that in all probability people won't be too fussed... HARDLY!

OK... when Ford was testing the ignition, they told me that the spark was "able to jump a considerable distance to earth" and considering that the majority of the ignition system is new, I tend to agree on that one.

The injectors have been removed & cleaned and their spray pattern has been checked OK (no dribbling). Fuel pressure regulator is new HOWEVER ford said that the fuel pressure was quite variable when off.. but when the ignition is turned on again fuel pressure is brought back within tolerance limits.

Good thought with the voltage rail Rollin, and one that I've already toyed with. The extended crank does pull a bit of current so I put another (new) battery in parallel and tried that. Started fine for a few days in garage and when I took it out in the sun it played up with the 2 batteries!

There seems to be something more fundamental wrong. I find it hard to believe that if this behaviour is due to some marginal parameter (spark JUST not strong enough or mixture SLIGHTLY out) then it would cough and splutter a bit. To the contrary, the motor is DEAD for the 1st 10 seconds of crank (quite a while) and only then will the 1st few kicks occur. By this time, the voltage rail is at it's lowest. You'd think especially with 8 cylinders, there'd be at least one that's itchin' to fire within that time!

I am (reasonably) conservative when driving and I get between 15.5 - 17 L/100k fuel consumption. Is this normal / high?

30deg ignition timing was way too much but it seemed to help things! Also when setting the timing, the timing mark seems to shift a bit which makes things difficult, Ford tells me this is normal, but I’ve learnt to question their every word!

I've seen some shitty wiring in my time and I'd put the wiring in this car in the "average" category. No heat shrink used, just insulation tape. It’s not an oil painting - but it looks ok.

I was considering selling the thing but for three points.
1. It is otherwise a beautiful beast
2. I would have pity on the poor bugger who bought it
3. Being analytically minded, I'm now extremely interested in nailing the problem and finding out exactly what's causing things to foul up.

News just to hand: I've found that if I back the car up our steep driveway (ie rear of car elevated by about 30deg), it kicks almost instantly in the morning (still splutters a bit though). This is not a complete fix as this position will still cause a fault in the heat, but things are drastically improved with her bum in the air!
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post #17 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-26-02, 04:37 AM
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damn mate this is a hard one, i asked a few guys at work and they just gave up in like 30 seconds...

the fact that it is heat related....GRRRRR

is it when the engine is hot AND also when the ambient temp is high or is it whenever the ambient temp is up, no matter the engine temp?

if it is independent of engine temp i would concentrate on things inside the car, as they are less affected by engine temp then interior temp.

have all avenues related to smartlock been exhausted? i reckon maybe the smartlock module is having a heart attack in hot weather and not pulsing the injectors for a while, or the wiring in there somewhere has a heat related intermittant fault...what condition is the key fob in? commos sometimes have dramas when the key (its a one peice central locking/immobiliser/key blade) gets a bit wet or old/damaged.

what about the temp of the key fob? if you heat it up does it make a difference (i dont think it will, but im clutching at straws here, like you are :) ) or is the actual smartlock module in the car affected by heat? maybe blow a bit of air from a heat gun on it and see what happens, or maybe blow a bit of hot air on the remote reciever on top of the dash - some VT/WH commos have a problem of the remote not working due to some electrical components in the reciever not working in high temps, so we replace the reciever on top of the dash with a revised part and its all good.

check the connectors for security and wiggle them around a lot to make sure they are not at fault as well.

also, we used to have a recall going at holden for a LOT of VTs, we had to replace the hazard light switch because in low ambient temps the plastic of the switch would deform a very small amount, causing an open circuit in the switch and stopping it from working until you warmed it up!!!

so all my above conjecture is based on the fault happening regardless of engine temp and based on interior temp, which i hope is the case, and would seem to be as engine bay temp would not be affected as much by outside temp then the interior...

that fact that the timing seems to affect the starting...got me stuffed there, but check the harmonic balancer and make sure it hasnt slipped, and that you are getting a true timing reading...

as to the angle of the dangle...mate i havent the foggiest idea there!! have you tried wiggling the wiring under the dash while cranking to see if it does anything?

ive just had another idea, which may help, depending on the manner of the fault, but if you have a heat gun then park the car in a cool place, do whatever you usually do to make it go first time, then get the heat gun and heat up individual components one at a time and try to make it fault, try (as i have said) the smartlock module, then the wiring to the BEM, then all the other components you can think of...i believe that your fault will be found in the interior of the car, based mainly on the fact it really only occurs in high ambient temps...

if you can get a heat gun by saturday and you arent busy i could maybe take a look at your car with you, i live on brissie southside, so you could come round if you want and we could have a go at it...

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post #18 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-26-02, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
do YOU have rubber?
 
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Sounds great rollin' I hadn't thought of isolating the interior temperature wise. It would be lovely to swap my BEM for a new one just to try it out but I've been unable to get my hands on a high model one. Ford have re-soldered my current BEM PCB. The fault does seem to be related to high ambient temp only, not engine temp. For instance on a cold day having run the car for a while (low ambient, high engine) she will fire ok (although I'm basing this on my foggy recollection of winter!)

Does anyone know where I can borrow a high model EL BEM in Brisbane for a few days?

I'm guessing that a hair-drier would do the trick? I'm working on Saturday but perhaps Sunday? When else are your free? I'm on the North-side but it still sounds good!
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post #19 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-27-02, 05:53 AM
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yes a hair dryer would do, im a bit spoiled at work we get a proper heat gun for stuff like that :s6:

yes sunday is better for me anyway, i will PM you my phone number, i hope we can fix your car, i had a problem with my car a while ago when it wouldnt rev out properly, and i checked every bloody thing possible, stumped every mechanic and tafe teacher i asked, i even pulled the cat out and had a look, all appeared ok, but when i got the new exhaust fitted it fixed itself, the old cat was melted in the middle, but the ends (all you could see with a mirror and torch) were ok...i could have taken an axe to the bloody thing let me give you the drum!!!

Slick, Quick and Fulliii SIK!!!
Proud TQE Operator

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Tuning in progress...
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post #20 of 170 (permalink) Old 12-28-02, 10:56 PM
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well that was a stuff-around! tried many things, couldnt get the car to fault $%^$#%^&ing cars never work when you want them to and always work when you are trying to diagnose and intermittant fault!!

we even parked it in the sun and put a couple of hair dryers in the back window, must have looked pretty funny to people driving down the street!
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Slick, Quick and Fulliii SIK!!!
Proud TQE Operator

197.4hp at the wheels, [email protected]/h
Tuning in progress...
*CLICK TO SEE MY XR6*
I can get new Genuine Holden/Ford/Audi/Land Rover/Honda parts cheap, PM me!
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