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351C stroked to 400 cubes vs 400M

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Hello Rhett.
I think the single plane manifold that Edelbrock made for the 400 was the Streetmaster. I used the Holley Street Dominator with great success. California Speed Supplies up in Brisbane had a stack of manifolds for the 400 earlier on in the year. You could try them for either Holley and/or Edelbrock.
I wasn't sure that a lot of commentary was needed for the engine rebuild. Motor was bored 30 thou over, giving a 408 cu i (6.7l). The cam was a mild hydraulic (Adv Dur. I:290, E: 280, Dur @ 0.050" I: 218, E: 224, GVL; I: 0.489, E: 0.530). TCE stall converter 3000, rear 9" 3.9, FMX. Heads 2V open chamber, ported and polished with 4V valves.
Putting in a solid cam (Crow Cam Adv. Dur. I:278, E:282, Dur @ 0.050" I: 238, E: 244, GVL; I: 0.56, E: 0.57). The new cam should brighten up the 400 a bit.
Cheers
Craig
 

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chi are making a manifold for 400m with chi heads ,same sort of manifold as the chi 351,,

id go the stroker route myself,,the 351 is already a heavy engine and a c6 is a monster,,Weight affects alot of things,if you want a burnout car go the 400m.
 

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aussiemart said:
chi are making a manifold for 400m with chi heads ,same sort of manifold as the chi 351,,

id go the stroker route myself,,the 351 is already a heavy engine and a c6 is a monster,,Weight affects alot of things,if you want a burnout car go the 400m.

I don't see the issue in a street car. The engine weight difference is similar to a alloy manifold and water pump, compared to the factory cast items, and I don't see many people telling us how differently the car handles on the street with the alloy items.
The stroker is going to cost a lot more as well. I have carried both the C6 and an FMX, and I don't think they weigh much differently (using only my arms as measuring devices ;) )
 

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unfortunatly due to its increased popularity, if you just say or write 400, then people automaticly think Chev. So it is easier to just say or write 400m.
People always ask me how hard or easy is it to swap in a chev into a F150 :?
 

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aussiemart said:
chi are making a manifold for 400m with chi heads ,same sort of manifold as the chi 351. id go the stroker route myself,,the 351 is already a heavy engine and a c6 is a monster,,Weight affects alot of things,if you want a burnout car go the 400m.
I'm thinking more of getting a bellhousing from the states that allows you to bolt up a C4 to a 400. I think a C6 takes about 55HP to run as opposed to 28HP for a C4. Also, the C6 will be a tighter fit in the trans tunnel of my XE. A single plane will be the better choice for gas.

The CHI option sounds very good and better then pumping lots of $$$ into iron heads. A set of better breathing alloys (AFD or CHI) will better handle the larger lungs of a 408 at 5500 RPM, and the weight saving over the front end will also be a bonus.

The main problem I'm having is finding a 400 rebuilder here in OZ. The frustrating thing is that on the other side of the Pacific, these motors are abundant and cheap.

I recon someone could make a lot of money importing and selling these factory 4 inch strokers. I'd do it if I had the capital. All I've read about these motors indicate that they would make a very tuff streeter, without the need to rev higher then 5000 - 5500, and they also have more torque then a 460 big block.


Some useful info . . .

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Ford.htm


Tim said that 302CC heads with flat-tops would give about a 12.2:1 compression ratio.

Here is a rough quote that I got from Tim for a short motor, (just need to add freight)


Shot Blast Cleaning, 8-Cylinder Block
Magnetic Inspection-Block
Cylinder Boring, 8 Cylinder
R&R Pistons
R&R Cam Bearing-/& drill restrictor hole
R&R Plugs
Block Resurfacing, Specifice Height
Connecting Rod Reconditioning, Misc
Engine Balancing, External type
Crankshaft Grinding, 8-Cylinder, Small Automotive
Assemble-short block

.................................................................
Total Labor $1060.25
.................................................................


Core Charge- Complete 400 block
ARP 351M/400 Rod Bolts
Hypereutectic Flat Top Piston/6-7cc Valve Relief
Flexplate
351M/400 Harmonic Balancer
Rod Bearings
Main Bearings
Ring Set
Cam Bearing Set
Expansion plug set

.................................................................
Parts Total $ 616.72

.................................................................
Grand Total $1676.97


NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL VALUE FOR MONEY.
 

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Rhett said:
and they also have more torque then a 460 big block.


Some useful info . . .

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Ford.htm


Tim said that 302CC heads with flat-tops would give about a 12.2:1 compression ratio.

Here is a rough quote that I got from Tim for a short motor, (just need to add freight)


Shot Blast Cleaning, 8-Cylinder Block
Magnetic Inspection-Block
Cylinder Boring, 8 Cylinder
R&R Pistons
R&R Cam Bearing-/& drill restrictor hole
R&R Plugs
Block Resurfacing, Specifice Height
Connecting Rod Reconditioning, Misc
Engine Balancing, External type
Crankshaft Grinding, 8-Cylinder, Small Automotive
Assemble-short block

.................................................................
Total Labor $1060.25
.................................................................


Core Charge- Complete 400 block
ARP 351M/400 Rod Bolts
Hypereutectic Flat Top Piston/6-7cc Valve Relief
Flexplate
351M/400 Harmonic Balancer
Rod Bearings
Main Bearings
Ring Set
Cam Bearing Set
Expansion plug set

.................................................................
Parts Total $ 616.72

.................................................................
Grand Total $1676.97


NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL VALUE FOR MONEY.
About $4110us gets you a 434 cube short, New nodular crank, steel h beam rods, forged pistons, 4 bolt mains.

400 motors are fairly common, should not pay more that $400-$700 for a rebuilder.

Why do they make more torque than a 460?

Freight is cheap, any car importer will take a couple of hundred bucks to put it in their container for you.
 

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Rhett said:
and they also have more torque then a 460 big block/QUOTE]

mmmmm,,you sure about that,,a 460 in std form the right year makes 500 foota pounds.
 

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Hello Rhett.
Where abouts are you? The Engine Centre in Narre Warren sold me a 400 rebuilder for about $450. Word of warning: be careful about which 400 block you get. Pre-1978 blocks with Michigan casting(MCC) had casting flaws that lead to cracks in the water jacket. Mine was a 1978 truck block and was cast at the Cleveland foundry(CF). If you are interested send me a private email.
A C4 has an integral bellhousing? In that case you will need to get an adapter plate instead.
Craig
 

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CRUSHU F150 said:
Why do they make more torque than a 460?
“. . . and they also have more torque then a 460 big block . . .”

I thought I’d get a reaction with that one. I may have exaggerated a little (a VERY little) . . .


“The 400's stroke is longer than that of both the 429 and the 460 (4.0" for the 400 VS. 3.59" for the 429 and 3.85" for the 460) which means more torque at lower RPM, which is exactly where you need it in a heavy Bronco. The 400 develops it's peak torque at a lower RPM than even a 460, which will be a big advantage if you plan on using your Bronco for heavy towing.”

http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/should_I_Keep_it.htm



Comparing M-block Power to Big Block Power

“In 1971, before SAE "net" power measurements, the 400 was rated at 260 hp @ 4400 rpm. By comparison, in 1971 the 460 was rated at 365 hp @ 4600 rpm. Bear in mind that these numbers compare a 400 with a 2V carburetor and 9.0:1 compression ratio to a 460 with a 4V carburetor and 10.5:1 compression ratio. 1971 is an interesting year to compare because the 400 had its original flat top pistons and a decent compression ratio. If you consider that the 1971 351C with a 4V carb was rated at 285 hp @ 5400 rpm with a 9.0:1 compression ratio, you begin get an idea of the 400's awesome power potential. I estimate that with a 4V carb, a decent cam (like the 351C had), a 10.5:1 compression ratio (like the 460 had), and 1971-era emissions controls, the 400 could have easily put out 325+ hp. The next year (1972), when more aggressive emissions controls were implemented and SAE net power measurements were used, the difference between the power output of the 400 and 460 was even narrower: 172 hp @ 4000 rpm (400) vs 212 hp @ 4400 rpm (460). Comparing maximum torque figures for 1972 (SAE net measurements) shows even more dramatically how close the two engines' power output is: 298 ft lb @ 2200 rpm (400) vs 342 ft lb @ 2800 rpm (460). At its peak torque, the 400 produces almost 90% of the peak torque of the 460, and it does it at less than 80% of the 460's engine speed. The 1972 comparison is a little more fair because the 460's compression was dropped, too. Now we're comparing a 400 with 8.4:1 compression to a 460 with 8.5:1 compression. Don't forget, though, we're still comparing a 400 2V to a 460 4V.”

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/...rformance_Options_for_the_351M400_Engine.html
 

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CRUSHU F150 said:
400 motors are fairly common, should not pay more that $400-$700 for a rebuilder.
Not common here in OZ, so I presume you are talking $US?

Can you recommend someone in the US who will send me what I ask for, not something I'll have to throw straight in the bin?
 

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kionga said:
Hello Rhett. Where abouts are you? The Engine Centre in Narre Warren sold me a 400 rebuilder for about $450. Word of warning: be careful about which 400 block you get. Pre-1978 blocks with Michigan casting(MCC) had casting flaws that lead to cracks in the water jacket. Mine was a 1978 truck block and was cast at the Cleveland foundry(CF). If you are interested send me a private email. A C4 has an integral bellhousing? In that case you will need to get an adapter plate instead. Craig
Thanks for the tip Craig. I'm in Perth. Where is Narre Warren?

I get confused as well, but a C6 has an integrated housing, while a C4 can be unbolted from its housing.
 

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I look at the poll above and concede that I’m in the 25% group. Don’t get me wrong - I would love to own a 10 sec streeter that I could drive every day and one that didn’t need constant adjusting and rebuilds or cost heaps to run, but I am realistic and my finances dictate a compromise is required.

I see the 400 as the ticket to a 12 second daily cruiser that wouldn’t need to rev past 5500, would return decent mileage, (especially with high compression and straight gas), wouldn’t require a bunch of big dollar items to build, (such as a stroker or alloys), and would last for many years. I could handle (and afford) something like that.

I am amazed at how much information is on the web about this motor, and the consistently high figures that these motors are returning, with only the everyday mods that we do to our beloved 351C’s.

If anybody else is remotely interested in the 400’s potential, have a browse thru the following links and make up your own mind.


http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/351m400_performance_build_up.htm

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Boulevard/2863/kellaway.htm

http://www.geocities.com/infieldg/v8main.html

http://www.off-road.com/ford/flashback/400_power.html

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Ford.htm

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/...rformance_Options_for_the_351M400_Engine.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/perf/perf03.html

http://www.broncotech.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001106#000002
 

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Rhett said:
I look at the poll above and concede that I’m in the 25% group. Don’t get me wrong - I would love to own a 10 sec streeter that I could drive every day and one that didn’t need constant adjusting and rebuilds or cost heaps to run, but I am realistic and my finances dictate a compromise is required.

I see the 400 as the ticket to a 12 second daily cruiser that wouldn’t need to rev past 5500, would return decent mileage, (especially with high compression and straight gas), wouldn’t require a bunch of big dollar items to build, (such as a stroker or alloys), and would last for many years. I could handle (and afford) something like that.

I am amazed at how much information is on the web about this motor, and the consistently high figures that these motors are returning, with only the everyday mods that we do to our beloved 351C’s.

If anybody else is remotely interested in the 400’s potential, have a browse thru the following links and make up your own mind.


http://www.projectbronco.com/Technical_Articles/351m400_performance_build_up.htm

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Boulevard/2863/kellaway.htm

http://www.geocities.com/infieldg/v8main.html

http://www.off-road.com/ford/flashback/400_power.html

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/400Ford.htm

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/...rformance_Options_for_the_351M400_Engine.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/perf/perf03.html

http://www.broncotech.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001106#000002

I agree with you. A friend raced a normally modified 400 in a XD Fairmont Ghia (full weight, power seats, windows etc) and ran mid 11's aspirated, and 10.80's with 100hp of gas.

If you buy parts peddler, or the trading post, there is usually a few there. And usually for the $$ in Australian funds, not US$$
 

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CRUSHU F150 said:
I agree with you. A friend raced a normally modified 400 in a XD Fairmont Ghia (full weight, power seats, windows etc) and ran mid 11's aspirated, and 10.80's with 100hp of gas. If you buy parts peddler, or the trading post, there is usually a few there. And usually for the $$ in Australian funds, not US$$
Thanks mate
 

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Hello Rhett.
Sorry about the confusion. Yes, the C4 has a detachable bell housing, like the FMX.
Narre Warren is in Victoria. Freight may be a killer.
The 400 is a great motor. Mine is a daily driver and on straight gas is as economical as a 4 cyl car on petrol. These motors are versatile: make great transplants for towing vehicles, and good performance motors with only a few modifications. Now the aftermarket people are getting more involved the interest in the 400 is growing both in the US and here.
If you need any more information Rhett please contact me.
Cheers
Craig
 

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kionga said:
Hello Rhett. Sorry about the confusion. Yes, the C4 has a detachable bell housing, like the FMX. Narre Warren is in Victoria. Freight may be a killer. The 400 is a great motor. Mine is a daily driver and on straight gas is as economical as a 4 cyl car on petrol. These motors are versatile: make great transplants for towing vehicles, and good performance motors with only a few modifications. Now the aftermarket people are getting more involved the interest in the 400 is growing both in the US and here.
If you need any more information Rhett please contact me. Cheers Craig
thanks Craig.

Can you please tell me about your motor design, as I'll be going straight gas as well.
I have the choose of 2VOC and 2VCC heads.
Which heads are you running and any idea what the C/R is?
Which manifold, cam, carby, etc are you running?
Are you using extractors or cast iron factory manifolds?
I presume you are running the C6, (what have you done to it)?
Hi-stall or standard converter?
Diff type and ratio?
What vehicle is your 400 in, and what did you have to do to fit everything in?
Do you have a 1/4 mile time?

Sorry for all the questions. Hope you dont mind.
 

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Hello Rhett.
Sorry I did not provide details earlier about my engine rebuild using the 400.
The car it went into is an XD Fairmont. I try to keep it looking as stock as possible to avoid unwanted attention.
The block was bored 30 thou over giving 408 cu i or 6.7l displacement. Used hyper increased compression height flat top pistons from Tim Meyer in the US. Gives about 10.5:1 CR with OC heads. Heads are 2V OC, ported and polished, have Crane Energiser roller rockers, double springs, 4V stainless valves. At the time I had a set of 2V CC heads but decided against this choice. I thought CR would be too high even for lpg. With hindsight I could have used the 2V CC heads and milled the pistons to achieve a desirable CR.
Initially cam was a hydraulic with duration at 0.050" I: 218, E: 224, GVL, I: 0.489, E: 0.532. Not a good cam, had a noticable idle but bled off too much compression due to the extended duration on exhaust. A bit of a slug at the bottom end.
Replacing this with a solid cam, duration @ 0.050" I: 238, E: 244, GVL, I: 0.55, E: 0.56 (Crow cam 21625). Rpm range 3000-6000. High stall converter 3000 TCE. Diff is 9" LSD 3.89 ratio
The car is on straight gas and initially used a single Gas Research carby. This proved to be woeful and the motor was running lean at top end. Dual Gas Research carby flowing about 880cfm is a great improvement. Presently economy is about 26-28l/100km around town, although that may change with the new cam. It also changes with the weight of your foot! I do about 350km/week.
Obtained a Holley Street Dominator single plane manifold for the 400 from California Speed Supplies in Brisbane.
Running an FMX with big block bellhousing (imported the bell from the US). The FMX had some shift problems initially but fiddling with the actuating pin and the modulator improved things. Going to get a stage 2 shift kit (Transgo) fitted next week. Should firm up the shifts.
Used Tri-Y Lukey extractors designed for the 351 Cleveland. The extractors needed a little persuasion to fit, especially near the steering box and I wrapped the extractors with heat insulating wrap. I think the 4 into 1 extractors would have been better.
The major problems were lack of information about the 400 here. My engine rebuilder had never heard of a 400 Ford motor, but soon liked the possibilities with the components from the 351 Cleveland that could be used. George of TCC Race Engines 391 Station St Thornbury VIC did a brillant job at rebuilding and installing the motor in the XD.
You need different engine mounts and the pulleys to run power steering and air con need the brackets to be modified to accomodate the taller block. The other problem was the increased block height of the 400 meant I cannot use a spacer underneath the dual carby set up-in fact I had to get the carbys machined in order to get everything under the bonnet!
The major problem I have now is I need to fit a 4 core radiator and fit either a flex fan or a severe duty clutch fan to keep this beast cool in stop/start traffic.
I have not done any times in this car but will do so in the future.
Cheers
Craig
 
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