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do YOU have rubber?
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Discussion Starter #61
botch, if I spray the aerostart say for three seconds and then get someone to crank, is it likely that the engine will spring to life straight away or would it splutter and stuff around. I mean the spray is not being injested in any controled proportion or quantity so it may display the same symptoms as the "normal" cranky start? :doh: nevertheless, spluttering would be better than cranking with no activity at all! I'll give it a go on the weekend, I've been busy with my new job.
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #62
oh yeah, I was wondering if anyone had any tech specs on the fuel pump relay. Since I've replaced the pwr-up relay and the thing still faults, I was thinking of just trying the old pwr-up relay in the fuel pump relay harness. Assuming that they are both triggered with the same polarity and have similar current ratings this should work, anyone know different? This would save me the $80ish for a new fuel pump relay. :s2:
 

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Two SC 61's = trouble
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6,360 Posts
I think the injectors are always live and pulse through earth trigering... right?? Check the earth near the eec computor in left kick panel ???
 

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Two SC 61's = trouble
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6,360 Posts
paulc said:
you mean an active low pulse train?
Not into electronics but I think I have read more the other way as in neutral pulse.. Or is that what you are saying?Latter I'll check through a book I have here but it's eec4 and often gets me into the wrong***

Try temp blocking the purge pipe from the fuel canister behind left light & into manifold. It MAY be heat soak or perculating and eccess fuel/ vapour entering manifold and taking time to clear as in flooded condition on carb motor??By the way that senser should be clossed when starting.. Simple sugestions, don't cost anything.Diagnosis is the problem here..Something a dealer should find no prob!!!

BTW I think 30* is total advance. Maybe??
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #66
Ok an update... Tried the fuel pump relay (which by the way seems completely interchangeable with the pwr-up relay yet double the price) and it was no fix. I've acquired a CRO and will now be able to see exactly what the injectors are doing.

BTW I've found that occurrences of the problem can be almost eliminated by turning ignition on and off a few times before cranking (as pointed out in a few other threads). Bought some aerostart too - but I'll check the CRO first.
 

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Master Tech
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72 Posts
turning the ignition on and off will help build fuel pressure to the max regulated limit. this could indicate an internal leak in the fuel system. try clamping off the return line or the pressure straight after switching ignition off. ideally you would like to have a fuel pressure gauge connected to be sure. not uncommon for fuel pressure regulators to get deposits underneath the seats which can cause a leakdown of pressure. base ignition timing is set at 28degrees BTDC. actual ignition timing is controlled by eec5 thru the spout wire. I think your problem is definitely fuel related.
 

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Shh i'm huntin more power
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1,764 Posts
Doh, jumped in the car tonight, after it had been the sun. Turned they key and she fired to life. The aircon, fan and radio didn't though. Quick bash on the dash to left of the wheel and it all came to life. Possible faulty BEM???
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #69
My god, I can't believe the last post in this thread was almost a year ago! Well I've got an update, but unfortunately not a very technical one. Being in the hotter months now, this darn gremlin has been annoying me more than usual (although I have pretty much learnt to live with it)... however the other day, it must have been just over a week ago I was surprised to find that the car started first go after it'd been sitting in the heat. It was so abnormal that I was rather cheery afterwards! Since then, the car has repeatedly and fairly consistently displayed much more willingness to start in conditions that would normally cause a certain fault. Now I've done nothing to the car that I can think would cause this so my only comment to others going through this mess is to wait for a year and it might just go away! ;)
 

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847 Posts
roflxor its like my auto antenna which mysteriously fixed itseld after being fuber for 8 months then working perfect again.
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #71
Ach well don't I feel like an absolute smacker... no sooner had I made that blasted post, I left work and the damn thing, as if it knew I'd posted, played up. Oh my god, could there be a more omnipotent beast?
 

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well, quickly reading what's been done i'd suggest two things .. first
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http://forums.fordmods.com/phpBB2/documents.php?doc=17

This says "Fuel flow is dependant on engine coolant temperature except for WOT (Wide Open Throttle)"

[WOT tells the eec to crank but shut off the fuel to the system, in case it's flooded].

Maybe check your coolant temp, or if it is a case of only when hot engine, maybe your fuel is running too rich ... ? i.e. it's at an acceptable rate when the engine is cold but too rich when hot?

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Second, have you tried leaving your key in the "on" position [but not running] for a good 20 seconds or so, to let fuel pressure build up? If you can start after this, I'd be looking at the fuel pump / tank / etc..
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and ofc ourse, i assume you've done so, check for earths and faulty wiring.

good luck! :)

jasonk
 

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XR8 & Ford Probe owner
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128 Posts
AAHHH electric gremilins arn't they just charming
At work we had a 2002 KJ Verada with a similar problemo on a cool day/night there would be no problem but when mother nature turned up the thermostat to around 30+ deg and fairly decent humidity say over 70% the car would fail to operate and the car would unlock itself and the alarm would go off and while driving the TCS light would flash like a madman for a few seconds.
Mitsu found it but they told what is was the main wiring harness (when the wiring loom got hot from the radiated heat in the car the plastic around the wire would go soft and on a thin part of the plastic wire cover would move and there was not enough plastic to insulate it there would be a short) they replaced the entire main wiring harness and in the past week with these pleasant Qld summer days (NOT) it has not failed once........
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #74
jason_k_3431 said:
well, quickly reading what's been done i'd suggest two things .. first
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http://forums.fordmods.com/phpBB2/documents.php?doc=17

This says "Fuel flow is dependant on engine coolant temperature except for WOT (Wide Open Throttle)"

[WOT tells the eec to crank but shut off the fuel to the system, in case it's flooded].

Maybe check your coolant temp, or if it is a case of only when hot engine, maybe your fuel is running too rich ... ? i.e. it's at an acceptable rate when the engine is cold but too rich when hot?
jasonk
Ok I want to change the engine coolant temperature sensor. Where is it and how do you change it? I can't find it in my Max Ellerys (crappy crappy manual, so many mistakes in it)
 

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100MPH Hunter
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1,045 Posts
Isn't it part and parcel in the water pump??? I not too sure where else it could be.
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #77 (Edited)
Oh please no!
I believe the EL V8 has 2 of the sensors and they're both behind the inlet manifold / piping near the firewall somewhere???

I don't know why there are 2 of them, nor why one costs $17.80 (F5AF12A648AA) and the other costs $117 (EA12A648A) :whatever: Can anyone please shed some light on this?

EDIT: Another dealer charges $104.20 for EA12A648A and they think that it is the only sensor (seemingly the 6 has two of them) :eyebrow:

EDIT: Ok now we're getting somewhere. There are two on the 8. They are both near the thermostat housing and live near the valley cover at the front of the plenum (apparently). The expensive one ($120 from this dealer) screws into the manifold and the cheap one ($20 from this dealer) screws into the water rail.
 

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I had a simular problem to yours. Every time I tried to start the car when cold (first time in the morning) the car would start and try to idle and quickly stall. The next time i tryed to start it, it would start and everything would be normal. The car drove normal but it had a bad idle. The problem had me going for two months until i thought that it might be injectors are dirty. Since i had some new 24lb injectors allready i though i just swap them over. I then pulled the intake off and found out that the intake gasket (between the upper and lower intake) was leaking between two cylinders. I replaced the injectors and the intake gasket and it fixed the problem...

Check if the gasket is OK. As for your pinging it could be that there is a leak in the exhaust or foulty oxygen sensor(s) making the computer think that the engine is running lean and the computer is compensating it by injecting more petrol (black smoke).
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #79
Hi I8AHSV, my symptoms are a little different to yours. I’ve had the injectors removed and completely cleaned. As for the gasket, well It’s hard to check things like that considering this is a daily driver!

Anyhow, I’ve bought the cheaper of the two coolant temperature sensors and I think I’ve found where it goes (in the water rail, near the drivers side fuel rail at the front of the plenum. I’ll try the new part tomorrow most likely. I’m still not sure on where the 2nd sensor goes, or the differences between the two sensors that result in the abhorrent price difference!
 

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do YOU have rubber?
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2,357 Posts
Discussion Starter #80
Would anyone with a decent ford (not Spax Ellery's) workshop manual be able to scan in or relate the information on removal and replacement of the 2 engine coolant temperature sensors please :s5: I don't know if you need to remove the plenum to get to the second sensor and my book has nothing relevant that I can find.
 
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