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Discussion Starter #1
I got a phonecall this afternoon from a friend of mine who is the very proud and protective owner of a brand new BA XR8. He has not long bought this car and naturally after outlaying $50K+ for it, he likes to look after it.

So you can imagine my surprise when he tells me that his car has been written off and his wife in hopsital after a crash with a 4WD. I don't know the specifics of the crash, I don't know who was at fault, but in this case I don't think it matters.

From what he told me, the 4WD has hit his car on the passenger side, pretty much directly into the pillar in front of the front door. Because it had a bullbar, the entire side just crumpled and it was very unfortunate that his wife happened to be sitting in the passenger seat at the time this happened.

So now I am asking the question - why is it that we allow these people who live in cities (this accident occured in a residential area btw) to drive Four Wheel Drives with Bullbars? Not so long ago we had the huge debate about just how safe bullbars were when it came to pedestrians, yet it seems little has been done to address what is a very significant problem.
More often than not (in my experience at least), the majority of 4WD owners/drivers are mums who use these things to go to the shops, take the kids to school and what have you. They feel safe up above everyone else, protected by a gigantic lump of steel that is stuck to the front of the car - god help anyone or anything who might get in the way of it.

Personally I feel that is unacceptable. It seems everyone sees car loads of P platers 'dangerous', and whilst this may not be comparing apples with apples, I think inexperienced drivers who have no grasp of the limits of the vehicle they are driving are just as bad. Had my friend's car been hit just a few centimetres back, his wife would be most probably fighting for her life, as it is now she hasn't exactly walked away from the crash.

I guess it is just because my car was severely damaged by one, as well as myself being knocked out and having glass showered all over me in a crash involving a bullbarred 4WD a few weeks back, and now this happening, that I am getting really p!ssed off about these things. But seriously, regardless of who is at fault in an accident, or how it happens, the fact is that bullbars are extremely dangerous, and the majority of people I see with them have absolutely no use for a 4WD. I realise that may be a bit of a generalisation, but seriously, something has to be done about them before someone else gets hurt or dies.
 

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back2thefutura - i think the reason y so many wives have these 4WD's is a substitute for their husbands PENIS!!!. The wives dont have anything else big in their lives, so they want a big car.

Most of the 4WD's never see and bloody dirt even. I would get more dirt on my car goin to my sisters house, then most people who drive 4WD's. If you want AWD, get a WRX or something like that. Prolly alot more safer for the people driving, and the people they may have an accident with.

They are just selfish people who only think of themselves, and not the lives of others when they have an accident with other drives!!
 

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Living near a primary school where these stupid women driving them with one kid in the passenger seat come down the street all the time, not giving way or anything, I totally agree.

First your car, now your mate's. Hope his missus gets back to normal ASAP.
 

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You hit that one right on the head
We have the same problem over here, bloody Remuera Tractors
I have no problem if they are being used for their designed purpose but they arent
 

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these people have these 4WDs because it makes themselves feel safer and gives them the sense that their kids are safer.
in victoria it is ILLEGAL to have a bullbar on any car in suburban areas UNLESS you actually live in the country and are in town for obvious reasons like shopping and what not. still makes me wonder though seeing a stationwagon TAXI in Portland with one of those hardend plastic bullbars on. (the ones that are the shape of the front of the car). Yet another law that is not enforced
 

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They should simply ban them from suburban areas. Wont happen quickly though... Because then everyone with a 4wd (ok, maybe about 10 people legitimately have a reason to own one) sells up, no one buys them, the price of new 4wd's dives and they stop making them.... This will NEVER HAPPEN!

Meh, ill keep dreaming else where
 

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Ive left this as a seperate post to qualify that your arguements are not valid.

I feel for your mate, specially his wife, and the pain both of them they must be going through. My thoughts are with them in a speedy recovery.

But the only reason she is alive is the saftey features of the BA, and the millions utalised to make it a safe vehicle.

Regardless of vehicle of impact, the crumple zone would be the same.

I would love to have access to these impact test on a website to justify my reasonings.

Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
laminge,

my main gripe is with people who use their 4WD as 'protection'. No brown nosing intended, but from what I gather you're a fairly experienced driver and you know the limitations of what you drive (at least I hope you do for when the T hits the road again). Thus I have no problem with someone like yourself owning and using a 4WD.

Now you're probably thinking 'well if I can have one why cant anyone else'. Well, while it is hard to sorta 'justify' my point in words, what I am attempting to get across is the fact that there are far more risks with a vehicle that has a bullbar on it when it comes to crashing. Sure it may be good for keeping the roos out of your engine bay, but the last time I looked there were not Kangaroos hopping around the streets of Sydney, Melbourne or Canberra, or any other city for that matter.

It is all about 'minimising risk' - that is what numerous road safety groups have tried time and time again to do - NRMA are trying to limit P platers to having 1/2 passengers of a Friday/Saturday night - why? Because in their eyes it minimises the risk of having to attend a crash scene where a carfull of them has crashed.
Therefore, in my eyes, certain people should not be allowed to own or drive a 4WD, and they should not be allowed to be driven in urban areas, simply because they are a totally different class of vehicle than your run of the mill Falcon or Commodore. If you live in the middle of a housing estate, and you dont go off road, why the hell do you need a 4WD, and what is it that youre so scared of hitting you that warrants a bullbar? A child running onto the road - well you decide, would it be easier to fix your car or tell the parents that their child is dead because you didnt want a dent?

So yes while the BA may have saved my mate's wife, what about the person in the older model of car that didnt get those millions spent on it?
 

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I regularly observe a lady parking near where I work and she barely had enough skill to park a medium size sedan on the side of the road, now guess what daddy bought her? Yep a Toyota Landcruiser!The mind boggles!
Cheers
Bill
 

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Yes Your right

The toorak tractors, the snobs of this world, wouldnt dream dirt roads, and it is a common perception by many that the 4wd will offer more boot space (god forbid the items placed loosly in the boot becoming airborne in a crash.)

Bull bars for onroad cars should be banned, and i beleive there is a movement towards this.

And No, i will have no idea of what the limitation of the T series is, but i am sure the tranny will :)

Cheers
 

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I have a cousin in Adelaide who recently informed me she's bought herself a Landcruiser 4WD. After administering a bagging about Toorak Tractors (she's of Melb origins so understood the spray) she informed me her back is stuffed and the ride height of the 4WD is perfect for lifting her young kids in and out of the car. The Falcon wagon they owned prior was really bad for her back.

After seeing another female friend (who is very small and petite) struggle lifting her baby in and out of her Mazda 626 it reinforces a possible reason 4WD's are popular. I told her she's going to trash her back if this keeps up.

I guess a legitimate answer is a Subaru Forrester, Toyota RAV4 or something like that with no bullbar!!

But I agree with the essence of this thread. There is no way known a full sized 4WD equipped with bullbars is needed for shopping and running kids to school and the driving skill levels of these owners leaves a lot to be desired.

It's funny watching them deal with ever shrinking car park bays at shopping centres!!
 

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I think driver education is also a big problem. People drive their 4wd like sedans, and expect them to have the same performance and braking. I also beleive 4wd marketing has to be reviewed, like the mazda "zoom zoom" add for their 4wd (sorry can't remember the name), making people think they can drive them like a sports car, contrary to their design. My 2 cents

Donno
 

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Again back2thefutura, my thoughts are with your friends wife and I hope it's nothing too serious. Do you know if the owner of the 4wd was a resident? maybe he was just passing though? either way you are right, both 4wds and bullbars are a deadly combination.

The thing that i'm puzzled about is why anyone would pay $100,000 or more for a 4wd. I can picture a Hilux or a Prado or whatever going through the bush, but would you take your Porsche or BMW "bush bashing"? I guess i'm getting a bit off topic but it again says that people do not buy them for their intended purposes. How many of you out there are frustrated when a 4wd pulls up next to you and obstructs your view?

I have no problem with people buying a 4wd, but to have them in our major cities as just a vechicle to get from A to B is just a dangerous and selfish exercise. How many people have to get killed before waking up, that's my 2 cents
 

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I think bullbars should be banned in residental areas. Bullbars are only made for the country, so if a kangaroo or someother animal jumps in front of the vehcile the car isnt damaged! So really why the hell is a bullbar needed in residental areas, so when someone walks in front of the car or u hit another car, yours isnt damaged but theres is and could easliy kill them like we just read above!!!!!!!! I think only country people should be able to drive them, cause a vehcile like that is needed out there.
 

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More often than not (in my experience at least), the majority of 4WD owners/drivers are mums who use these things to go to the shops, take the kids to school and what have you.
agree to a point. on my experience, the majority of 4WD owners/drivers are complete morons with no idea how big their car is, how hard it is to see past the frigging things and generally lack something else in their lives so need to compensate by driving an oversized lump of steel that should be left on a farm or in the bush.
 

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EXTREME! HAHAHAHAH.. Ahh
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Before 4WD's were so common place, my parents used to have bullbars on their sedans for country driving, but they'd take them off in the city. Why? Because if you hit a roo at 100k's an hour, you want him to be turned into mince meat, not come flying through your windscreen! That's what bullbars are for - what is the arguement to use them in the city??? My dad goes on and on about this, but I suppose until you've seen what a metal bullbar does to a kangaroo you may not appreciate what it can do to a soft fleshed human being.

All modern cars are specifically engineered to crumple and a 100Kg piece of metal strapped onto the chasis cancels this safety feature out (and I'd like to see some crash test information on bullbars that are claimed to work with crumple zones because I reckon that's a load of BS). Simple physics says that crumple zones on both cars absorbing the impact should soak up most of the energy in a crash. A bullbar transfers most of the energy into the other car. So you can definitely say that, given this information, anyone who never takes their 4WD out to the country, but drives 25,000 k's a year in the city is selfish or lazy. IF most people don't know this, or are selfish and lazy, it makes a good case for the gov't to legislate for it.

If people want to feel safe and are willing to drive a massive unweildy beast of a 4WD around to do so, good luck to them. But there's absolutely no reason to have a bullbar on your car in a residential street. The fact that Victoria has banned them surprises me, it's the only auto decision I've heard the Vic gov't make that makes sense!

And whilst unfortunately my X-trail will be lumped with the heavy duty 4WD brigade, I'd suggest people drive some of the 'soft roaders' before comment because they aren't far removed from most sedans and hatches. The difference is of course, that when I go to the beach, I can drive onto it without having the draw backs of owning a 2.5 tonne 4WD.

As for a 100K 4WD... Some people just like badges. I think if you want a 4WD, then you can never go past a landcruiser for half the price. And if you want something to move the family, buy a people mover or XR. Then take the 50grand you save and take your family travelling somewhere amazing - like Egypt or Europe!!!
 

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xtrail said:
............. I think if you want a 4WD, then you can never go past a landcruiser for half the price. ..............
No Way

Ban all 4wd vehicle imports... except Ford naturally..... :AAHHH: :AAHHH: :wnc: :AAHHH: :AAHHH:
 

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laminge said:
No Way

Ban all 4wd vehicle imports... except Ford naturally..... :AAHHH: :AAHHH: :wnc: :AAHHH: :AAHHH:
I dunno - those F-Series Fords should require a class 3 licence in my opinion! ;)
 
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