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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
> You'll never see the dollar equivalent in savings and they allow
> automakers to "cheat" CAFE
> standards.


CAFE is fundamentally flawed in many ways. It's what led to the explosion
in SUV sales. Fleet fuel economy would have been better off had the big
cars been allowed to survive in great numbers.


> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031


But yes, every calculation dollar wise has been in favor of the conventional
version of the same vehicle.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

I was gearing up to write some silly letter to the editor of the local
paper, about how the Toyota Prius owners in my neighborhood -- Berkeley
CA -- are so environmentally irresponsible to be driving these rolling
Superfund sites when they don't even return that good an mpg. I found
these factoids before I got bored:

"Many of us tried to drive the Prius like committed Greens. Other less
patient colleagues hammered down. Our combined results: 1338 miles per
31.832 gallons, or 42.03 mpg. That's well up on the 35 mpg we managed
from our last Prius, and it puts this one in fifth place in the
C/D-Observed Fuel-Economy Hall of Fame, behind a 2002 Honda Insight
hybrid (48), a 2000 Insight (47), a 1992 Suzuki Swift (45), and a 1998
VW Jetta TDI (43). That's still impressive, considering the Prius is
bigger than all the above and that the Jetta was driven from coast to
coast on the superslab."

CD 2/05

"12-Month Update, longterm 2004 Toyota Prius test:

"· Total mileage 21,794
"· Average fuel econ 42.0 mpg

"It's still good fun to see how high we can get the mpg readout on the
screen to go--50 mpg isn't unusual."

MT 5/05

Compared to the EPA's rating of 60/51 city/highway, the 42.03 mpg that
Car & Driver got in a 1300 mile road test, and the 42.0 that Motor
Trend got over a 22,000 mile 12 month extended review, have to be
ranked as disappointing. My family's Toyota Echo, which sells for less
than half the price of a Prius, gets 37-40 mpg no matter how you drive
it. Yet the 42 mpg Prius -- and not a 40 mpg '01 Echo, or Car and
Driver's 45 mpg '92 Suzuki Swift or 43 mpg '98 Jetta diesel -- get the
tax credits and the diamond lane passes.

What inspired my "research" was taking a walk through the nabe a week
ago with the wife, and seeing THREE of these Prius things parked nose
to tail. So I started paying attention and I swear I saw at least one
and sometimes two or three PER BLOCK, 1st and 2nd gen included, over
about a 20-block distance. In other words Berkeley CA is f***in
overrun with these creepy little things. (And they ARE creepy,
sneaking up on you on the electric motor only, like a golfcart only
quieter.) That experience had me feeling like the scene in "The
Invasion of the Body Snatchers," when we see the box truck leaving town
loaded up with pods and headed for the big city.

Write it down, this whole fad is going to collapse and all these
granolaheads are going to be cursing these things the loudest of all.
It happens when a few tens of thousands of these smug little greenies
either find themselves facing a $4000 battery pack replacement or a
similarly disabling and expensive computer or other high tech service,
or that they're looking at a huge depreciation hit at resale time
because nobody's stupid enough to buy theirs.

I've figured it out, though, that these pod people don't really care
about the mileage, they care about guilt, and about their smugness.
The typical Prius owner thinks he or she should really be taking mass
transit, but god forbid they should actually have to double or triple
their travel time to get somewhere. They NEVER do. They drive
(usually some damn Volvo) and they feel guilty. So they buy the
greenest car there is, the Prius, and this makes it OK not to take the
bus or the train. And better yet, to snear at everyone who's not
evolved enough to follow them over the cliff.

180 Out
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
>> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031
>
> But yes, every calculation dollar wise has been in favor of the conventional
> version of the same vehicle.


Be sure to read the bottom comment about the 2004 Prius:
http://www.physorg.com/news10031.html

Ah heck, I will quote it here, below.

Lynn


And, pilotmadrat, your's is also the same old boring, short-sighted regurgitation of the nay-sayers.

I've said it a million times elsewhere, if a gas/electric hybrid is "only 10-15% more efficient" (I'll argue that point later) and a
diesel (or biodiesel) is 35-40% more efficient. Then a diesel (or biodiesel)/electric hybrid would, therefore, be more efficient
than either a straight diesel (or biodiesel) or a gas/electric hybrid.

As to your point of "only 10-15% more efficient," let's see, my old 4-cyl Chevy S10 pickup averaged a respectable 27 mpg, my '04
Prius averages around 47 mpg (when taking into account winter/spring/summer/fall driving): that comes out an improvement of around
70-75% over my S10's average performance for my situation.

Now, let's also consider that my '04 Prius has a CD player, power windows (for all FOUR windows), 12 presets for FM and 6 for AM,
Vehicle Stability Control, automatic climate control, ELECTRIC air conditioning (which means using the A/C doesn't drain my POWER
when I'm driving uphill - more on that later), side air bags, room for 4 (5 according to Toyota's reckoning), folding rear and
passenger seats (and the driver's seat folds down too, presumably for taking a nap when you are NOT driving), absolutley zero,
nadda, no emissions coming out the tail pipe while sitting at a read light, and plenty of pep or "get-up-and-go".

I can't say my old S10 had any of those things, except for the 4 presets for the stereo and it did have 2 windows, though they were
not powered and it had regular A/C.

Now, for you nit-pickers, yes, I know that the electric A/C will drain energy, my point is that I don't notice my car slogging along
because of the A/C. That is, when the compressor kicked in on every other car I've owned or driven, the POWER dropped because of the
mechanical nature of the A/C. A Prius, on the other hand, does not struggle because of the A/c being turned on. Of course, you will
notice the battery draining faster and it could drain if you're speeding up a looong hill, but for 99% of my driving that doesn't
happen ... and I live in Denver just East of the foothills. So, yes, the ENERGY will drain just the same (translating into lower
mpg, as with every other vehicle in existence) but you won't notice a POWER drop. Of course, no other car out there will constantly
recharge that extra A/C energy drain like a hybrid, which is why electric A/C is so nice in a hybrid.

I will agree that a decision to buy a hybrid strictly on economic factors is a tough sell, though I got around $3000 back in tax
incentives, which means I paid just over $17,000 for my '04 Prius. I can also say I fit into my Prius fairly comfortably. I never
did like my friend's Civic or VW Jetta (diesel), they were way too small for me.

And finally, given the standard features in a Prius, I think it is fairer to compare a Prius to a Camry or an Accord, and not to the
Corolla or Civic.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

Lynn McGuire wrote:
> As to your point of "only 10-15% more efficient," let's see, my old 4-cyl Chevy S10 pickup averaged a respectable 27 mpg, my '04
> Prius averages around 47 mpg (when taking into account winter/spring/summer/fall driving): that comes out an improvement of around
> 70-75% over my S10's average performance for my situation.
> Now, let's also consider that my '04 Prius has a CD player, power windows (for all FOUR windows), 12 presets for FM and 6 for AM,
> Vehicle Stability Control, automatic climate control, ELECTRIC air conditioning (which means using the A/C doesn't drain my POWER
> when I'm driving uphill - more on that later), side air bags, room for 4 (5 according to Toyota's reckoning),


Two comments: First, don't even try to compare your Prius to an S10 or
ANY kind of pickup. That's like saying "My S10 hauls 500 lbs of dirt
and my Prius doesn't". If you want to compare your Prius to something,
compare it to another car.

Second, you say your Prius has room for 4 (5 according to Toyota), but
you don't say that it has the power to haul your 4 or 5 people around.
I've ridden in one. I know that it doesn't have the power to haul 4
people around. (Well, down hill maybe) Try some start and stop hilly
city driving with 5 people. And when you do, I hope you have an
impatient vehicle behind you with a loud horn.

Another poster mentioned the $4,000 battery. It might cost that by the
time it's due for replacement, but I think some of them will cost twice
that amount with a purchase today.

Bottom line: Except for the welfare check that the government gives you
to buy it, your purchase woundn't pay for itself.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In article <[email protected]>, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031

>>
>> But yes, every calculation dollar wise has been in favor of the conventional
>> version of the same vehicle.

>
> Be sure to read the bottom comment about the 2004 Prius:
> http://www.physorg.com/news10031.html
>
> Ah heck, I will quote it here, below.


Let me cut it down:

> As to your point of "only 10-15% more efficient," let's see, my old 4-cyl Chevy S10 pickup averaged a respectable 27 mpg, my '04
> Prius averages around 47 mpg (when taking into account winter/spring/summer/fall driving): that comes out an improvement of around
> 70-75% over my S10's average performance for my situation.


Last I heard a chevy S10 and Prius were not the same vehicle.

Go back and compare a standard civic and a hybrid civic.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Around 1/19/2006 4:14 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> Now, for you nit-pickers, yes, I know that the electric A/C will
> drain energy, my point is that I don't notice my car slogging along
> because of the A/C. That is, when the compressor kicked in on every
> other car I've owned or driven, the POWER dropped because of the
> mechanical nature of the A/C.


In keeping with the newsgroup's Mustang theme, sounds to me like you've
only ever driven vastly underpowered cars and trucks. 300+ HP ought to
fix that slogging problem. ;)


--
/ Garth - '83 GL V6stang Hatch <Former MW #7> \
| My V6stang: http://www.v6stang.com/v6stang |
| RAMFM Merchandise: http://www.cafeshops.com/ramfm |
\ ~~ Ventis secundis, tene cursum ~~ /
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
On Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:48:34 -0600, [email protected]
(Brent P) wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> You'll never see the dollar equivalent in savings and they allow
>> automakers to "cheat" CAFE
>> standards.

>
>CAFE is fundamentally flawed in many ways. It's what led to the explosion
>in SUV sales. Fleet fuel economy would have been better off had the big
>cars been allowed to survive in great numbers.
>
>
>> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031

>
>But yes, every calculation dollar wise has been in favor of the conventional
>version of the same vehicle.
>


Also, nobody ever mentions the extra load on the environment by the
batteries. Once they are worn out, they will a) pollute some landfill
or b) need more resources to be recycled properly.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

It was mentioned two weeks ago that the new CAFE standards would hurt
the
hybrids even more than standard cars, in terms of what they claim their
economy is.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

> Two comments: First, don't even try to compare your Prius to an S10 or
> ANY kind of pickup. That's like saying "My S10 hauls 500 lbs of dirt
> and my Prius doesn't". If you want to compare your Prius to something,
> compare it to another car.


It is not my Prius. I drive a Ford Expedition with the 3 valve 5.4L. I am
just quoting the website posting. I do highly admire the Prius technology.
It seems to be well thought out, especially the electric air conditioning.

I have been seriously considering purchasing a Mustang GT convertible
as a third car. However, the potential availability of gasoline in the
coming months is beginning to concern me.

> Bottom line: Except for the welfare check that the government gives you
> to buy it, your purchase woundn't pay for itself.


If you tell me the future price of gasoline, I will tell you if the Prius will pay
for itself. For instance, we were paying 27 cents per gallon in 1972
before the Arab oil embargo. In 1973 that jumped to 50 cents per gallon
and then to $1.00 per gallon in 1979.

I suspect that if the USA or Israel bombs Iran in March, the price of
gasoline may hit $10 per gallon in April here in Texas. That is, if you
can get gasoline. Hurricane Rita was a very sobering experience
here in Houston (we did not have gasoline generally available for over
a week after the hurricane). A lot of stations did have diesel if you
were willing to pay $3.50 per gallon.

BTW, the Prius has a $2,000 price over MSRP plus a six month waiting
list here in Houston. Kind of like the GT convertible.

Lynn
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

> It was mentioned two weeks ago that the new CAFE standards would hurt
> the
> hybrids even more than standard cars, in terms of what they claim their
> economy is.


I belive that the new CAFE test coming in 2008 will hurt the "phase 1"
hybrids. It seems to me that a true hybrid has an electric motor with
about 80% of the hp of the gas motor and electric air conditioning.
The only hybrid that meets this is the Prius.

Lynn
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

"Lynn McGuire" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>> Two comments: First, don't even try to compare your Prius to an S10 or
>> ANY kind of pickup. That's like saying "My S10 hauls 500 lbs of dirt
>> and my Prius doesn't". If you want to compare your Prius to something,
>> compare it to another car.

>
> It is not my Prius. I drive a Ford Expedition with the 3 valve 5.4L. I
> am
> just quoting the website posting. I do highly admire the Prius
> technology.
> It seems to be well thought out, especially the electric air conditioning.
>
> I have been seriously considering purchasing a Mustang GT convertible
> as a third car. However, the potential availability of gasoline in the
> coming months is beginning to concern me.
>
>> Bottom line: Except for the welfare check that the government gives you
>> to buy it, your purchase woundn't pay for itself.

>
> If you tell me the future price of gasoline, I will tell you if the Prius
> will pay
> for itself. For instance, we were paying 27 cents per gallon in 1972
> before the Arab oil embargo. In 1973 that jumped to 50 cents per gallon
> and then to $1.00 per gallon in 1979.
>
> I suspect that if the USA or Israel bombs Iran in March, the price of
> gasoline may hit $10 per gallon in April here in Texas. That is, if you
> can get gasoline. Hurricane Rita was a very sobering experience
> here in Houston (we did not have gasoline generally available for over
> a week after the hurricane). A lot of stations did have diesel if you
> were willing to pay $3.50 per gallon.
>
> BTW, the Prius has a $2,000 price over MSRP plus a six month waiting
> list here in Houston. Kind of like the GT convertible.
>
> Lynn
>
>

yes if gas prices go up the hybrid's pay off comes quicker. Remember however
you'll still be buying $10.00 a gallon gasoline with the rest of, just not
as much.
what happens if the big car makers do put the tech and research into regular
gas powered cars? could we expect a 50 MPG mustang or a 35 MPG F-150? as was
discussed months ago on this board gas mileage has been static while
Emission (law driven) safety (law driven) and drivability (less warranty
work driven) have improved steadily. Gasoline prices have not kept up with
the economy in terms of inflation, therefore gas was relatively cheap,
meaning MPG has not been a driving factor in auto research,. That may change
shortly. if the MPG or the average vehicle doubles it will push hybrids back
into the background again until the next crisis. instead of opening up the
Alaskan preserve for more drilling the USGOV should actually fund bigger
incentives for both the purchase and manufacturer of alternative/hybrid
cars.
When we switched from leaded to unleaded fuels, the transition was
relatively quick and painless. We could do the same now, tax breaks for gas
stations that put in hydrogen or charging stations, mandate all new vehicles
either get big MPG or use alternative fuel.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

According to one report, it's claimed MPG rating will drop from 56 to
37 under the new rules.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

> According to one report, it's claimed MPG rating will drop from 56 to
> 37 under the new rules.


All cars EPA mpg ratings will drop. My wife's 2005 Honda Civic EX
5 speed coupe was epa rated at 33/38. She gets 25 in the city and
35 on the road.

Lynn
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

"Lynn McGuire" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:1[email protected]:

>> According to one report, it's claimed MPG rating will drop from 56 to
>> 37 under the new rules.

>
> All cars EPA mpg ratings will drop. My wife's 2005 Honda Civic EX
> 5 speed coupe was epa rated at 33/38. She gets 25 in the city and
> 35 on the road.
>
> Lynn


Aside from a very rough comparison tool, EPA mpg figures are
meaningless. The only mileage figure that really counts is the mileage
your own vehicle gets.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: Hybrids; A scam whose investment you never recoupe

In article <[email protected]>, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> I suspect that if the USA or Israel bombs Iran in March, the price of
> gasoline may hit $10 per gallon in April here in Texas. That is, if you
> can get gasoline. Hurricane Rita was a very sobering experience
> here in Houston (we did not have gasoline generally available for over
> a week after the hurricane). A lot of stations did have diesel if you
> were willing to pay $3.50 per gallon.


A lot of the problem is that any hint of a price rise all the morons go
out and fill every container in their house with gasoline as if there
will never be gasoline again... which of course only makes their fears of
shortage and price spikes come true.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Do you think your P4 computer just came into being one day? You must be
young to be so ignorant, and not remember the days of a 286, then a 386, and
on and on... My MP3 player has more power than the first computer I bought
in 1987. These hybrids may not be the cat's ass today but they will grow...
BTW, you might consider upgrading your 486DX33 with 16 megs of RAM someday -
I hear there is some new technology out there...

Brad

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> You'll never see the dollar equivalent in savings and they allow
> automakers to "cheat" CAFE
> standards.
>
> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031
>
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:15:40 GMT, "BradandBrooks"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Do you think your P4 computer just came into being one day? You must be
>young to be so ignorant, and not remember the days of a 286, then a 386, and
>on and on... My MP3 player has more power than the first computer I bought
>in 1987. These hybrids may not be the cat's ass today but they will grow...
>BTW, you might consider upgrading your 486DX33 with 16 megs of RAM someday -
>I hear there is some new technology out there...
>

Ah yes the infamous "cat's ass". Would you be surprised to know that
your MP3 player probably has more computing power & storage then the
space shuttle? I shit you not, but the technology on that bad boy is
8088 based and it makes it up & down most times.

The real issue with hybrids is not so much the technology involved,
but the longevity and viability of that technology. Why should I as
Joe Consumer have to pay ten's of thousands of dollars for something
that doesn't work as advertised, has no proven maintenance track
record, and no history of sustaining resale value?

Believe it or not there are still plenty of uses for 486's. I have
one running a version of Unix in use as a firewall. Still does it's
job.
>Brad
>
><[email protected].ca> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> You'll never see the dollar equivalent in savings and they allow
>> automakers to "cheat" CAFE
>> standards.
>>
>> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031
>>

>


--

December 9, 2005 (CNN) While interviewing an anonymous
US Special Forces soldier, a Reuters News agent asked
the soldier what he felt when sniping members of Al Quaeda
in Afghanistan.

The soldier shrugged and replied, "Recoil." (Possible Urban Legend)
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
"Zombywoof" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:15:40 GMT, "BradandBrooks"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Do you think your P4 computer just came into being one day? You must be
>>young to be so ignorant, and not remember the days of a 286, then a 386,
>>and
>>on and on... My MP3 player has more power than the first computer I
>>bought
>>in 1987. These hybrids may not be the cat's ass today but they will
>>grow...
>>BTW, you might consider upgrading your 486DX33 with 16 megs of RAM
>>someday -
>>I hear there is some new technology out there...
>>

> Ah yes the infamous "cat's ass". Would you be surprised to know that
> your MP3 player probably has more computing power & storage then the
> space shuttle? I shit you not, but the technology on that bad boy is
> 8088 based and it makes it up & down most times.


1981
Space Shuttle
Intel 8086 and RCA 1802 (display controller) - Later Intel 80386
The Space shuttle uses the APA-101S computer (5 of them for redundancy).
They run at about 1.2MIPS and still use a couple megs of ferrite core memory
(which is impervious to radiation). The entire control software for the
shuttle is less then one meg. The new glass cockpit in the shuttle runs on
Intel 80386s

1990
Hubble Space Telescope
Originally a DF-224 (8-bit).
First service mission added a 386 coprocessor.
The Hubble now runs on a 80486

1998
International Space Station
Intel 80386SX-20 w/ Intel 80387
There are several computers on the ISS. The most important are the command
computers which use the i386.

http://www.cpushack.net/space-craft-cpu.html

>
> The real issue with hybrids is not so much the technology involved,
> but the longevity and viability of that technology. Why should I as
> Joe Consumer have to pay ten's of thousands of dollars for something
> that doesn't work as advertised, has no proven maintenance track
> record, and no history of sustaining resale value?
>
> Believe it or not there are still plenty of uses for 486's. I have
> one running a version of Unix in use as a firewall. Still does it's
> job.
>>Brad
>>
>><[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]
>>> You'll never see the dollar equivalent in savings and they allow
>>> automakers to "cheat" CAFE
>>> standards.
>>>
>>> http://www.physorg.com/printnews.php?newsid=10031
>>>

>>

>
> --
>
> December 9, 2005 (CNN) While interviewing an anonymous
> US Special Forces soldier, a Reuters News agent asked
> the soldier what he felt when sniping members of Al Quaeda
> in Afghanistan.
>
> The soldier shrugged and replied, "Recoil." (Possible Urban Legend)
 
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"BradandBrooks" <[email protected]> wrote
> BTW, you might consider upgrading your 486DX33 with 16 megs of RAM
> someday - I hear there is some new technology out there...


Damn, and I thought my Tandy 1000 was the shiznit!!! Tape drive and
EVERYTHING. Guess it's time to upgrade huh? Any suggestions? I heard the
Pentium Pro was a good upgrade. It only takes me 7 hours to download one
email.
--
Scott W.
'66 HCS Mustang 289
'68 Ranchero 500 302
'69 Mustang Sportsroof 351W
ThunderSnake #57
http://home.comcast.net/~vanguard92/
 
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