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I built this engine with standard clearances and use Penrite HPR Gas. I'm a bit dubious about using a fully synthetic oil in clevelands and was warned not to by a certain camshaft manufacturer.
 

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That's what I originally thought.
I too used to use the Penrite gas.

I have been using the fully synthetic Oil in my Clevo for 7 years with straight LPG. Done over 60,000 klms.

Stripped the engine 5 months ago for a cam change and minor parts upgrade and found everything inside to be PERFECT. Even the engine builder buzzed out. The fully synthetic oils are far superior. They have much higher thermal stability ( Great for LPG guzzlers ) they maintain their viscosity ratings much better and provide better economy and horsepower potential.

Mineral oils tend to leave behind deposits in engines that run hotter ( aka LPG motors ) and do not maintain their viscosity levels any where near as well as the good synthetics. You also get better protection against OIL evaporation and foaming. Better start up in the morning ( with a good OIL Filter as well of course )

This is only my humble opinion from the experiences that I have had and I in no way am suggesting that you change to a synthetic oil.


XXESP
 

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I actually tried that semi synthetic shell oil after it was run in and it did spin over quicker but sounded just a bit rattly in the rockers, then the cam guy said they had cam lobe probs on fords and holden 308's using shell helix. I use this car for towing my race car so it pulls a heavy losd and I just feel safer with something a bit heaver. But if it was proven Iwould swap over. My race 351c uses HPR 40 and its very kind to the bearings.
 

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As a side issue,

Gas Research in Dandenong run their new motors in using Mobil 1 and my Dyno Guy has been running Heavily modified Clevo's for race and marine using Mobil 1 for years without any probs.

I guess it's difficult sometimes to try something new without undisputed material proof. At the end of the day , stick with what you know works and only change to something that you know works better.

Remember that FPV also finally decided to use fully synthetic Oils in their cars for the reasons I tried to outline in my previous message. I guess that if you build the motor with the appropriate clearances in mind , and match the oil you should never have any problem despite the type of oil.

I have also found that a really good Oil Filter is just as important. Steer clear of the El Cheapo RYCO's and Motorcraft Junk. They bypass the filter at High revs and do not flow well on start up. Try K & N or HARD DRIVER.


:- )

XXESP
 

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I agree totally about the clearances. My race engine is "looser" so I'd be wary of Mobil1 but who knows maybe I'm missing out on a few more horses. I dont know anything about hard driver filters are they local?
 

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Whats traction?
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ESP said:
xdc 351


Are you able to elaborate on these " tricks " for the Impco 425.
Who is your contact in Melbourne that knows how to tickle them.

Cheers Mate

XXESP
Hehehe, ME!

PM me what you have done so far and I can offer some advise.
 

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The synthetic vs mineral oil debate has been around for a long time and i don't think it will ever go away.

The thread http://www.fordforums.com/showthread.php?t=43343 has some opinions in it (some of my pro mineral ones ;) ) but i run only penrite mineral oil in both my 6 and my 351 and have found it to be extremely good in both. I have run heaps of different oils and the only one I am happy with is the penrite, but i vary the viscosity depending on what season it is.

I think its what you feel more comfortable with, i will say i've never seen any quarter mile times improve with an oil change, on my cars and others so i think there is very little power to be gained by switching oils.
 

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Oils aint Oils

I would never push my point here as I ain't no Oil Engineer.

A lot of the hype surrounding oils is generally marketing / advertsing gimmikery. The whole point of going to a thinner oil is to enhance the fuel economy and possible engine responsiveness due to less drag on the motor. Remember that even a 5W - 50 Mobil 1 will be theoretically identical to a 20W - 50 PENRITE when the oils are hot. As the SAE ratings indicate , both Oils should act as 50 weight Oils when they are hot. The main differences here are the supposed exotic ingredients in the Synthetic Oils base chemistry that give it greater thermal stability and "load" breakage.

My brothers new BAGT uses the 0-40 synthetic and I must say that this stuff is thin and slippery. You can't even read the dipstick level as the oil runs off so quick !!!!

These engines however are designed with clearances mindful of this oil so it's not a real problem hence the 3 year warranty.

I have used many types of oils in my Gas Clevo and have found the synthetics to work OK. As I said in my previous message , the choice of Oil Filter is probably just as important and so are the clearances and the engine build itself. Using a baffled sump works nicely as well.

I imagine that it would be impossible to say that one particular oil works better than any other because each engine is a little different and so are each individual's driving styles.
If you need any proof of this , just look in the papers and you will see many new FPV owners complaining about excessive OIL consumption and others wondering what all the fuss is about. So much for tight tolerances on the engine production line !!!!!!!!!

I guess the best part of all this banter is that we can learn from each other and go from actual experience instead of marketing bribery.
From my experience , synthetics work A1 in the old Clevo's and I've never had a problem using them. Just make sure you use the right viscosity for your clearances. :)

XXESP
 

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Do you know what clearances they use in the 5.4? I'd bet there much tighter than any cleveland would be running. The oil consumption issue was in the newspaper. Ford said that some GT's that were built in the fisrt month of production had bad rings from there supplier and that all since then are fine.
There is a deffenate differance in the Shell Helix Gas Oil 15w-40 to the penrite HPRGas in that the engine cranks over a lot faster on the starter especially in winter but I didnt like it in summer as the oilpressure was lower and it had a bit of top end rattle
 

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ESP said:
I have also found that a really good Oil Filter is just as important. Steer clear of the El Cheapo RYCO's and Motorcraft Junk. They bypass the filter at High revs and do not flow well on start up. Try K & N or HARD DRIVER.


:- )

XXESP
Ok i have to call :bs: on the Motorcraft filter bit :s6: . If anything a filter like Motorcraft & Ryco would have better flow on start up & be less likely to bypass the filter, why...? Because their filter media is less restrictive(less filtering = more flow), than say the K&N or Mobile1, which use more restrictive synthetic fibre(better filtering = less flow) filter media.
Having said that, i do think Ryco is junk, the motorcraft filter is actually a purolator or purolator1 which is a good filter with good construction and flow.
The K&N filter would be my pick ONLY if i was using a light weight synthetic oil like 5w 40. I have heard of disastrous results using too thicker synthetic or even dino oil in these "synthetic filters"(especially Mobile1) on a high revving motor. These filters actually filter to well and in return sacrifice flow, which = pressure in the filter, which = bypass valve open 24/7 and that's not even considering a high volume oil pump :hl: .
 

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Thanks for the extra info.

The SAE stats actually verify my previous message. Better filtering does not necessarily mean more restrictive, You are negating the whole concept of better design and Flow path within the filter.

The cheaper paper filters can actually collapse SLIGHTLY under High load with thicker oil. This can then make them even more restrictive and much more Dangerous than any synthetic media as you suggested.

We have used most of the performance Oil filters on the market and have found that the Synthetic Filters like the HardDriver and K & N work better with any type of oil. Work better = smoother start up with HEAPS and HEAPS of LESS rattle. This would suggest much BETTER flow on start up than you are suggesting.

I have been using a 10W - 60 Oil with the HARD DRIVER Filter for years and have never had any of the problems you are alluding to. This does not mean you are entirely incorrect as there may be bad filters out there that are causing those problems.

Also HIGH Volume Oil Pumps do not Mean High Pressure. There is a fundamental difference here in the terminologies and understanding of the concepts. High Volume pumps just circulate more amount of oil per given time than a standard pump. They pump under the same pressure but have variances in their clearances to allow for the extra volume.


I guess the jury is still out on the filter issue , but my comments are only based on personal experience of trial and error.

Thanks for the chat

XXESP
 

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Interesting reading, Ive always used ryco's since 1983 with HPR40 with a high volume oil pump and never had a problem. There's been a few re-builds since then but after many hundreds or 1/4 mile runs at 7000rpm there has not been a oil filter related problem ever. I wouldnt be so quick to write them off
 

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Great to hear.

I'm only suggesting here that there may be something better than the RYCO , particularly at such High RPM.

But if it works for you , stick to it.

Cheers


XXESP
 

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Discussion Starter #56
OK!!

Seeing as I started this thread I figured I should let those of you who have been involved with it, know how it all went.

I ended up getting the Impco 425 mixer and associated converter, 80L usable tank, factory fuel guage converter, etc.....

Just got the car back yesterday.

It feels a hell of a lot smoother then it did with the thermoquad on Optimax. It's got more grunt off the line but maybe loses a tiny bit at the top end.

You don't get that sudden surge when you crack the secondaries open cause they set the throttle butterflies up so they all pretty much open together. But the advantage is that you can mash the gas right off the line and it jumps out of the gate like a bastard!! You don't have to push the primaries and wait until the revs pickup before you crack the secondaries anymore. Bottom line here is that the 0-100kph time is now about half a second better!!! Admittedly the thermoquad was never quite right.

My engine is a very mild but freshly rebuilt (20,000kms ago) 351 clevo with factory electronic ignition. Dyno2000 predicts the engine is grunting out 318HP at 5000RPM and 387ft/lbs at 3500RPM on LPG so it's no racer but fun nonetheless. The car is an XE ute with FMX auto and a sluggo Fairlane 2.7:1 LSD in it. At least it's got disk brakes on the back and the fellas that built it also transferred the front end and interior from the Fairlane too. hmmmm luxury ute.......

The only problem I have with the conversion is that it pings a bit when the weather is warm. At night in the colder air it's not a problem. That will be fixed quickly enough by sorting the ignition curve out a bit better.

With LPG at 38cents a litre and Optimax at $1.05 a litre, I can't recommend gassing your clevo highly enough if you drive it every day.

It cost $2,200 including all parts and labour as well as the service in 1000kms. It'll pay for itself in about 18 months.

The guys that did it all are Gas Tune in Tuggerenong, ACT. Good blokes.

That's it.

Over and out.

Chris.
 

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Chris, sounds like youve done well. Seems like a similar setup to my own. Get that pinging sorted quickly though. I'm using a re-curved standard XC dizzy with no probs. Initial timing is set at 14 deg and dosent ping even towing in summer.
 

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Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
Will do. Mine is set at 9 degrees initial with max of 29 degrees advance. I think the mechanical advance is coming in too early.
 

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You have done well Chris.
I have just priced a Gas Research conversion for my F truck at $3700.00.
This includes a 240 litre (238 usable) tank, cast twin carb adaptor, 2 gold series carbs (S480 + S510), draglink, 2 B2 convertors, installation, tuning & dyno time.
I would also need to send my ignition back to IC&E to be regraphed while they were doing the conversion.
I will not be going ahead with this though, as my cam has too much valve overlap (Crane F260), & my compression is what they called "borderline at 10.5:1". I spoke to another guy locally about it & he came straight out & said "Maaaate! I don't want to touch it."
So it's back to $1.05 optimax again.
 

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Fat F100 said:
You have done well Chris.
I have just priced a Gas Research conversion for my F truck at $3700.00.
This includes a 240 litre (238 usable) tank, cast twin carb adaptor, 2 gold series carbs (S480 + S510), draglink, 2 B2 convertors, installation, tuning & dyno time.
I would also need to send my ignition back to IC&E to be regraphed while they were doing the conversion.
I will not be going ahead with this though, as my cam has too much valve overlap (Crane F260), & my compression is what they called "borderline at 10.5:1". I spoke to another guy locally about it & he came straight out & said "Maaaate! I don't want to touch it."
So it's back to $1.05 optimax again.
Gas reasearch gear is expensive. "borderline 10.5:1" with an F260? The more overlap the better it will cope with a high static compression ratio so i'm not sure where the problem there is...

LPG has a similar if not better tolerance for pinging than optimax when configured right, my 351 is closer to 11:1 compression and i havn't heard it ping yet!

Dizzy recurving and correctly set timing is the key, but I'm thinking the people quoting that price might be playing with themselves a bit. Might pay to shop around a bit too.

Also Good to hear LPG is working for you Chris.... Another one to join the 'dark side'... muhahahahaha ;)
 
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