[JayLo]

Hi, all. I just joined the forum in hopes to learn more about what has long been my favorite V-8, the 351C.

The car in question is a 1967 Mercury Cougar with a 351C/C4 swap.

My plan is to fuel inject and turbocharge the 351C. I’m going to go with moderate boost until I can put a built Cleveland between the shock towers.

I already have a Weiand single-plane intake manifold (mildly polished 2v ports) set up for port fuel injection, a custom made 1000cfm progressive rate throttle body, and fuel rails that all resided on a Accel DFI fuel injected Pantera for the last decade. The owner parted with his Pantera and sold me the DFI system.

I also have a dual-sync Accel DFI distributor and the wiring harness to tie it into the Gen 7 DFI system.

Having browsed your forum, I am very excited about the build. I know you guys had stock Cleveland heads that put our offerings to shame on the street (Do they call them Aussie heads in Australia? I bet not. ). But I had no idea you Aussie guys had aftermarket head options for this motor, let alone ones that appear (on paper, anyway) to flow as well as ported LS1 based heads.

I’m eyeballing a set of CHI 2v aluminum heads for my motor, but I want to start with a built proof bottom end.

What are the most cost effective options as far as selecting a block?

4-bolt main or 2, is it worth it?

Any preference for a nice hydraulic roller cam for a turbo motor?

If it helps, here are my goals:
I’d like to build a 600-700rwhp turbocharged motor on pump gas (intercooled with alcohol injection). I likely won’t spin past 6500rpm.

I’ll keep digging through the forum so as not to ask questions every other newbie does. Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,
Justin

 

[falcon coupe]

Welcome aboard.

600 to 700 hp would close to block limit, it would need half grout fill, an SVO block would be better.
2 bolt mains would do the job IMO.
A roller cam would be ideal, less maintainence more power.
CHI 2v's will do the job but their new 4v's or even AFD 4v's would suit the turbocharge application well.

 

[russxr67]

Stay with the advice of Falcon coupe. All clevo,s have thin cylinder walls and as such will not support that much HP without severe filling. You would be far better off using a Dart block as a base and work your way up from there.

 

[JayLo]

Thanks for the input guys. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

I've been helping a buddy build his '93 Mustang Cobra. After seeing all of the catastrophic failures of 5.0L blocks at as low as 400whp, I wanted to make sure I wasn’t going to do the same thing with my Cleveland.

What is a safe max power rule of thumb as far as a non-grouted Cleveland block goes? Would that 600-700 horsepower figure be at the flywheel?

Has anyone had any success with main cap girdles to add a little more strength to the bottom end?

Do Cleveland blocks fail the same way as 302 blocks (down the lifter valley) and turn into two 4-cylinder blocks?

I'll checkout the dart blocks. Thanks,

 

[LTD351V2]

I have been through exactly the same thing.

If you plan on ever making more than 6-700 flywheel hp, then start with a dart, world or svo block. The clevo blocks have poor oiling and thin bores, not to mention 30 years of corrosion and also core shift.

A stock block may handle it at first, providing you find one with OK bores and half fill it with grout, and the aftermarket blocks come in clevo deck and main bearing sizes so you can upgrade later on, but the sump/oil pump/dizzy/cam will be different.

If you go with a std block and half fill it, use an oil cooler to keep the oil temps down, filling the block is known to make the oil run hotter.

The std 2bolt clevo bottom end is very strong and seeing as you shouldn't need too many RPM's aftermarket caps are a waste of money on a std block.

The world block will accept either clevo or windsor manifolds, the other blocks may also do the same but I know the world will fit both.

Forget the CHI 4V's, they are only used if you want to use a std 4V intake manifold instead of a filled manifold, which is a waste of time unless you already have one.

Any head even stock 2V's will easily reach 600fwhp under boost, if you plan on making some serious power later on then any aftermarket head/intake package will work but get the larger cc heads, anything around 220cc or larger will be ideal, the CHI 3V's or the AFD 4V's would work excellent, even the 2V's would also.

You should upgrade to H beam rods, but for 600hp the std crank will survive, but a forged item would be better insurance.

If you are going single turbo make sure the turbine side can flow enough exhaust gas.

I suggest you look into a PT76GTS or a GT42 76, they should all be able to reach your power goal. If twins then two GT35/40's would be heaps, or even T04Z's, too many to choose from.

Building a C4 to handle the TQ that you will have is impossible, you should look at a T400 or powerglide, or just keep the power down, TQ will burn the C4's, hey they will work but bands will need replacement often if you race it.

I belive the std clevo block needs some work to accept roller lifters?? A roller cam would be better but even a flat tappet hydraulic would be safe for 600hp, it all depends on the application.

If you go with an aftermarket blcok, one that will accept std ford hydraulic roller lifters then use an F303 ford motorsports cam, or something similar. Those cams have proven to work extremely well with turbo's as the have a wide LSA. You would acheive peak power at about 62-6300rpm with the F303.

Good luck.

 

[JayLo]

Thanks for your input.

Base on your advice (and my own knowledge of the existing condition of the motor), I'll probably turbocharge what I have (essentially a stock 2v Cleveland), but keep the boost, revs and power down until I can build a stronger motor (forged rotating assembly, hydraulic roller cam, CHI 2v heads and maybe an aftermarket block if I can afford one).

I should have mentioned that the C4 is only in there because it cam with the car. The Cougar was originally a 3-speed manual, as based on the build codes and the clutch pedal hidden under the carpet. I would like to put a built 4-speed automatic (Ford AOD or some variant) with a mild stall behind my motor. If need be, maybe I can use a GM 4L80E, though I would rather forgo anything GM on my car. Any thoughts on a strong Ford 4-speed auto with overdrive I can put in there?

Also, the rear-end is an 8-3/4” peg leg. I’ll have fun murdering that once I have lots a boost induced torque. I’ll probably go with a built 9” with 3.40ish rear gears.

 

[JayLo]

For turbos, I haven’t decided yet whether to go one or two.

For, me the advantages of running two are; 1) They look WAY cooler, 2) They ought to flow more on the exhaust side (two smaller circles as opposed to one larger one) for any given spool characteristics, 3) I wont need a crossover pipe and 4) I’ll have more mass in the bearing sections to dissipate the same amount of heat.

The disadvantages are; 1) More cost (not always true) and 2) Packaging (I’ll likely have to move around accessories for two turbos).

If I go two, I was considering a pair of Turbonetics 50-trim T3/T04E hybrids.

I had one of these (stage III turbine) on my Dodge Spirit R/T 16valve 2.2L. With shot rings, it put down 320whp on a Mustang dyno and trapped 110mph at the track with 163k miles already on the clock and TONS of blowby (made the dipstick pop out at 20psi). A buddy down in Kansas has put 420whp/470wtq and runs 11.68 @ 121 with the same turbo on a fresh motor in the same FWD 4-door sedan.

For my Cleveland, even with CHI heads I’ll probably have less volumetric efficiency than the 16-valve Lotus head my Spirit had (ported, polished, radius cut valves, etc), but I’ll have more displacement (almost 2.9 liters per bank) so I would think I’d me moving similar amounts of air (though not up to 7grand like my 2.2L).

These compressors will support 500 flywheel horsepower each on the right motor. They also spool very quickly for journal bearing units. Above 60mph where wheel spin was no longer an issue with my car they would make 20psi intercooled boost by 3000rpm. Plus they are dirt cheap (maybe $600 each) because they are a standard journal bearing turbo.

Here’s a turbo related question: Do you guys know anyone who makes turbo headers for Cleveland heads?

 

[LTD351V2]

Sounds like you have it sorted, using small journal bearing twins would be heaps cheaper than a large single, as you have to spend more to get the large units.

You could use reversed cast manifolds? I have seen that done but its fairly inneficient and they can crack. Best bet is to make some custom headers, even if they are log style.

Any of the OD boxes have a weakness, the OD just can't hold much TQ. You could use an AOD with 4R70W internals, with a non lockup converter.