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Numb Nut in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

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· '60 F100 Q-Code
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8033569501&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1

...yet another wanker calling the Cleveland a big block.

I sent him a message via eBay telling him that a Cleveland was a small block, here was his response:

you are wrong and better go do some more reserch. The 260/289/302/351W are the same block and are small blocks. The 351C/351M/400 are Big blocks. This is ford not chevy

Anyone else care to tell him that the Cleveland is a small block Ford?


:davis:

Sorry mate, just edited your title - I'm hearing your frustration :hy: TruBlu
 
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#5 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

I hit him to. Here is what I posted:

How do you figure a 351C is a big block? You can bolt C heads on a 302 or a 351W. A 351C uses the same motor mounts and bellhousing as a 302/351W. And a 351C has a lower deck height than a 351W, 9.2" vs 9.5". A 351C is a Ford 335 Series engine. Like the Windsors, it isn't a small block and it isn't a big block because it isn't a Chevy.

--J
 
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#6 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

:hy: sent him a bit of a note to help explain which ford engines are called big blocks and which are called small blocks.

all very polite and diplomatic :priest:

he is proberly thinking .... geees there are a lot of touchy clevo owners out there :booty:
 
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#8 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

that engine mount looks to have a bolt/ rivet through it.... is that a genuine thing for the mustang mount.

we have to do this mod ourselves to falcon mounts.
 
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#9 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

To further the debate there are some interesting comments here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0912656891/103-4313597-5743838?v=glance&n=283155
A side note on the 351 Cleveland issue: The Cleveland is NOT a small block ford. It is not a big block (FE Series) either. It is part of Ford's 335 family of powerplants which includes the 351-400M (Modified or Michigan Series.) 335 Series engines' heads and some other components are interchangeable. They also share the bellhousing pattern with the big block family and will not bolt up to small block bellhousings or earlier transmissions like the C6 with the integrated bellhouse. Simply because the displacement of the 351C engine is the same as the largest small block does not also make the Cleveland a "small" block. It is the block casting and style that earn SBFs this classification, not the displacement. "
Click to expand...
Perhaps as is suggested on the same link it should be called a "middle block." A Google search of "351C middle block" with show some support for the case that it's not a small or big block.
 
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#10 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

or perhaps it is a "big small block" see http://www.californiaspecial.com/forums/t1230-p4-68-gt-coupe-and-68-gtcs-diecast-model.html

[/QUOTE]'The Ford 351 Cleveland, on the other hand, belongs to Ford's 335 engine family. This thin-wall cast BIG SMALL BLOCK uses the smaller 14mm spark plugs, has a separate front cover (bolted to the block) housing the timing chain and routing water - so that water does not go through the intake manifold, features beefy main caps (wide enough to drill for 4-bolt mains), a poor oiling system, and uses different heads for 2V & 4V versions. The heads make all the difference and these fire breathing babies make this motor the legend it is. On the 4V, the valves are HUGE, measuring 2.19" intake and 1.7n" exhaust. Valves this large are only possible via a canted valve arrangement, forming what Ford refers to as a "poly-angle" combustion chamber. The valve covers are not straight - the front is flat and parallel to the ground, but a curve twists the rear parallel to the head. They are attached by 8-bolts and when removed, there is a 4 cast into the corner of the 4V and a 2 cast into the corner of the 2V (at least in 1970). The canted valves are the dead giveaway.
 
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#11 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

Is it just me, or isn't this mount for an actual 351m/400 or a 385 series big block? It has the 3 mounting bolts that would indicate it mounts to one of the mentioned above blocks. He really has his wires crossed on this one.
 
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#13 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

351cid said:
that engine mount looks to have a bolt/ rivet through it.... is that a genuine thing for the mustang mount.

we have to do this mod ourselves to falcon mounts.
Click to expand...
Yes that is genuine. All Cleveland mounts and most 351W mounts I have seen have those.

--J
 
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#14 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

Aussiblue said:
I see Ford list describe the 351c under the heading small block in their Ford Racing parts catalogue http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/catalogs/2006-pp.pdf on page 222 so I guess that must be the official line.
Click to expand...
Really though Ford does not build a small block or a big block. It has only been the past decade that you see Ford using the terms. SB and BB are Chevy terms. Ford builds engine families and that used to be the only terminology Ford US ever used (Chrysler did this also--A, LA, B, RB). You had Y-blocks, MEL, FE, FT, Windsor, 335, 385, Super Duty, etc.,.... but not SBF and BBF--until recently. Really, what is a BBF? A 332? A 370? A 428? A 429? Many people up here have started calling the 351M/400 middle blocks due to the 429/460 bellhousing and the tall 10.3" deck height. But what do you call those engines if they have a Windsor/Cleveland bellhousing? Ford did build a few 400s like that in 1973, so what is it? I'll stick to the engine family names and leave SB and BB to the Chevy guys.....they need things really simple or they get confussed easily.
 
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#15 ·
Re: Wanker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

F100cleveland said:

Is it just me, or isn't this mount for an actual 351m/400 or a 385 series big block? It has the 3 mounting bolts that would indicate it mounts to one of the mentioned above blocks. He really has his wires crossed on this one.
Click to expand...
Nope, it's not you. That is a 351M/400 mount.
 
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· '60 F100 Q-Code
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Re: Cranker in States calling Cleveland a Big Block...

Aussiblue said:
To further the debate there are some interesting comments here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0912656891/103-4313597-5743838?v=glance&n=283155


Perhaps as is suggested on the same link it should be called a "middle block." A Google search of "351C middle block" with show some support for the case that it's not a small or big block.
Click to expand...
The same fool that wrote "400M" is the one that will call a Cleveland a big block.

"Middle block?" That is total horse****. The question seems to be what differentiates a small block from a big block. Let me tell you the answer.

221/260/289/302(C)/351W/351C/351M/400 all have the same 4.38" bore spacing and all but the 221/260 have the same 4" bore. All but the 351M/400 use the same engine mounts and bellhousing (except the 5-bolt 221/260 and a few early 289s).

Bore spacing dimension is what constitutes a big block, not CID. Not the fact that there have been some who would call the Cleveland anything but a small block and definitely not stupid crankers* who say "this is ford not chevy."

With the idea of being able to create a larger stroker 351W than a 351C, I'd go another step further to suggest that the C is as much of a small block as the 351W.

My reply to the loser was that the same stupid engine mount that he's trying to sell on eBay will fit any of the small blocks (except 351M/400). I even pointed out to him that the Arrow part number for a 1969 "5.8L" also was the same part number for a 1971 BOSS 351, which was only offered with a 351C...and, of course, the 351C wasn't introduced until 1970 so that 1969 "5.8L" was a 351W.

Let me know if this cranker* ever replies to any of your messages!


:davis:
 
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