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MK2 Escort 1300GT
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Hello guys would speakers in the kick panel near the front doors sound good there sony xplod 51/4 100watt ones. would running them and running some in the doors sound good coz i cant put them in the door coz too much cutting needed. iam gonna make some new kick panles outta some thick masnate would that be good i got a 4 speaker out put deck btw
 

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RIP Sox.....
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The kick panel is the second worst possible spot for speakers.
The worst is the parcel shelf.
Try your hardest to make them work in the door, as high up as is possible.

Rick.
 

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Looking in YOUR bathroom.
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bwhahha..........erm, in most cases, the kick panel is the ULTIMATE place to position midrange+tweeters, as it atempts of equalise pathlengths.

As a matter of fact, high up on the door is one of the worst places for speakers :)
 

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RIP Sox.....
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Walkinshaw said:
bwhahha..........erm, in most cases, the kick panel is the ULTIMATE place to position midrange+tweeters, as it atempts of equalise pathlengths.
As a matter of fact, high up on the door is one of the worst places for speakers :)
The kick panel is poor for a number of reasons.
1. Frequencies above 4khz are extremely directional and placing any tweeter (as in a 2/3 way) will result in a rolled off top end.
2. The kick panel cavity is always way to small to provide and kind of bass at all, with most drivers rolling off below 100hz.
3. The balance is considerably different from side to side depending on whether a passenger is in the car. The only time they have a hope of sounding reasonable is if no one is in the car.

Equalisation of path lengths is not important because we are never able to centralise our listening position in a car anyway.

Once again, high up in the door is the very best place for speakers in a car.

Rick.
 

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The tweeters should be mounted at the base of the piller holding the windscreen facing towards the middle of the car and the woofer at the bottom front of the door, preferably in a fibreglass pod angled approximatley towards the general listening area. The idea of having high mounted tweeters is, as soxx said, so the high frequency sound is directed towards you. the doors should also be deadened with sound absorbing material to attenuate reflections, improve the low frequency responce and stop outside noise from entering the cabin. Sorry rymers and walkinshaw's but the kickpanels are definatley NOT a good place as all the sound is directed to your feet. If you have an issue with delay times, then a delay circuit or DSP will fix this.
 

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ST170ish
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"definatley NOT a good place as all the sound is directed to your feet."
Thats why most (quality) car speakers are made with a off axis position(responce) in mind, check the spec's...
plus most installers would install them on a angled baffle anyway!
And having the tweeter miles away from the midbass...not good!
 

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"Steve has a car?"
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I suggest you definetly direct this question to a dedicated site such as Car Audio Australia (www.caraudioaustralia.com) You will get a hell of a lot more "expert" opinions their rather than a ford forum. I am not putting anyone here down, it's just that I have heard contrary views from a lot of Sound quality dedicated experts that spend some serious dollars on there equipment.

I have never heard speakers in the kick panels of a ford so I'm possibly incorrect in assuming that this is the best place in your car, but I've heard speakers in the kicks of other cars and they sound absolutley magnificent.

Having the tweeters miles away form the mids are no good, that's why it's best to install you mids and woofers closest to you in order of speaker size. Woofers should be closest to you, followed by mids and then tweets.
 

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RIP Sox.....
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Rmyers said:
I suggest you definetly direct this question to a dedicated site such as Car Audio Australia (www.caraudioaustralia.com) You will get a hell of a lot more "expert" opinions their rather than a ford forum. I am not putting anyone here down, it's just that I have heard contrary views from a lot of Sound quality dedicated experts that spend some serious dollars on there equipment.
I don't think anyone needs to seek 'expert' help, as they too only have there opinons. My opinion is based on many years of installations and measuring using ETF and real time analysis.
ETF will measure FR (using pink noise and swept sine), 3D waterfall, phase, and a host of other usefull tests.
I have never heard speakers in the kick panels of a ford so I'm possibly incorrect in assuming that this is the best place in your car, but I've heard speakers in the kicks of other cars and they sound absolutley magnificent.
Speakers in kick panels can work ok, what I am saying is, IME, speakers strategically placed in doors and dash sound better, overall.
Sound in a car is a huge compromise, hell, sound in your home is a compromise, yet we are faced with so many variables when installing car audio, some apsects of sound are more important to others.
What I'm trying to say is, that I suspect the 'experts' who prefer the speakers in the kick panel, favor a certain aspect of sound over the aspects which I feel are important.
Having the tweeters miles away form the mids are no good, that's why it's best to install you mids and woofers closest to you in order of speaker size. Woofers should be closest to you, followed by mids and then tweets. [/B]
This is basically what I prefer also, bass mids high up in the door as possible, and the tweeter in the dash.

Rick.
 

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Looking in YOUR bathroom.
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firing tweeters into the windscreen from the dash, and having the tweeter seperated from the mid is one of the worst ways to set up a front stage.

Mids (espicaly) dont require much volume of air behind them at all. With 3way installs most mids come with a sealed rear chamber, and wont play below 700hz. Have a look arround at top scoring SQ cars and note where the mids and tweeters are mounted (not the midbass drivers), 95% would be located in kickpanels, others would run horns located under the dash.

As for equalising pathlengths, you are right to say we wont achieve 100% accurate pathlengths, but you would agreee minimising path lengths goes allong way to helping to achieve a centralised immage. I can guarentee having a mid 0.4m from your ear and the other mid 1.5m away wont ever provide excelent imaging or staging.

As for having kickpanels having bad responce as they are offaxis, show me a high mounted mid that has better angling of mids than a well constructed set of kick panels.
 

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Crazed Cone Chaser
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Having the speakers in the kicks may be all well and good, but I have seen very few cars that will allow this to happen on the drivers side.

I could fit one in the passenger footwell, but with a lot of work moving the ECU, but the drivers side...not a chance in hell.

I've just made up some pods for my doors and they have given a huge improvment over the stock locations, which really is the most important thing. i've got the tweeters sitting at the tops of the door trims cos, from playing around, that is what sounds best to me. The tweeters arent overpowering either cause there is a level adjustment in the crossovers.
 

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Looking in YOUR bathroom.
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with fiberglass anything is possable..at one stage i was making kickpanels for my EA......being slack and all, i havent completed them.....some pics of them under construction are here.......

This is my front stage, Morel 3way
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/f144ed3b/bc/Car+Audio/Kick+Panels/Front+Stage+Drivers.jpg?bcB8qf.ADDYk5IlV

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/f144ed3b/bc/Car+Audio/Kick+Panels/Scale.jpg?bc_8qf.A.qDfUKgw

http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/f144ed3b/bc/Car+Audio/Kick+Panels/Test+1.jpg?bcj8qf.AEMrY7Ro2
 

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RIP Sox.....
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Walkinshaw said:
firing tweeters into the windscreen from the dash, and having the tweeter seperated from the mid is one of the worst ways to set up a front stage.
Nonsense. A 'stage' can never be realistic in a car, never.
A cars acoustics in comparison to a good sound room in a home is absolutly appaling. Tweeters mounted on the dash firing to the windscreen as in E series Falcons simply rely on reflected sound as well direct sound to reach the listener. It is all early reflections and whilst not ideal, works quite decent as the time difference isn't great. Imaging is no worse than having tweeters in the kick panels, and IME it is better.
Mids (espicaly) dont require much volume of air behind them at all. With 3way installs most mids come with a sealed rear chamber, and wont play below 700hz.
Sealed back mids are crap and are a waste of time. All decent 3-way setups should have a sub which is crossed over no higher than 80hz, with a bass mid driver taking it up to 3-4k.
Have a look arround at top scoring SQ cars and note where the mids and tweeters are mounted (not the midbass drivers), 95% would be located in kickpanels, others would run horns located under the dash.
Most of these cars have drivers wherever the owner wants them, and also have about 5 times to many drivers.
The best sounding audio systems have have a pair of tweeters, a pair of bass mids, and a pair of smallish (8") subs.
Anything more is simply chasing SPL and is compromising SQ.
As for equalising pathlengths, you are right to say we wont achieve 100% accurate pathlengths, but you would agreee minimising path lengths goes allong way to helping to achieve a centralised immage.
Sure, but as I said in my previous post, the other attributes which are poor in kick panel mounted drivers swamp any attempts at equalising pathlengths.
As I also said above, there are other more important things which need addressing in a car audio system particularly we can never achieve a decent image.
I can guarentee having a mid 0.4m from your ear and the other mid 1.5m away wont ever provide excelent imaging or staging.
I never said it would, no position can achieve a decent image in a car. Though it is better than having drivers directed at you feet, no matter how equalised the distances are..
As for having kickpanels having bad responce as they are offaxis, show me a high mounted mid that has better angling of mids than a well constructed set of kick panels.
All of them.
I'm talking about when there is someone actually in the car.
Rick.
 

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an 8" sub wont allow SQ setup, as it wont beable to faithfly reproduce freqequencys down to 20hz at -0db.

Sealed mids being a waist of time? You had better notify Morel Dynaudio and other to stop making their 3.5" midranges.

By 3way setups, i mean 3way + sub bass. Use 12"-18" 's for subbass and then a front stage consisting of an 8"midbass+3.5"mid and a 1-3" tweeter.

I never said it would, no position can achieve a decent image in a car. Though it is better than having drivers directed at you feet, no matter how equalised the distances are..
No car could image as well as a high quality home setup, but many cars can image EXTREEMLY well. Cars such as the Alpine F1 system, and many IASCA cars of the last 10years.

However, as you have rightfully argued, Audio is in the ears of the beholder. What sounds good to one person, may not sound good to another.
 

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RIP Sox.....
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Walkinshaw said:
an 8" sub wont allow SQ setup, as it wont beable to faithfly reproduce freqequencys down to 20hz at -0db.
Of course they will, with EQ. Remember I'm not talking SPL competition here.
In any case, for most music 30hz is low enough.
Sealed mids being a waist of time? You had better notify Morel Dynaudio and other to stop making their 3.5" midranges.
Morel make some decent tweters, as do Dynaudio (excellent tweeters), I'm not fussed on there bass or mid drivers, however.
We use Audax in our home speaker range.
By 3way setups, i mean 3way + sub bass. Use 12"-18" 's for subbass and then a front stage consisting of an 8"midbass+3.5"mid and a 1-3" tweeter.
Fair enough, I do things diferently because I'm not chasing SPL at all. The odd (car) system I do these days will (at the most) consist of a pair of 1" dome tweeter somwhere on the dash or top of the door, a 5 1/4" or 6" bass mid as high up in the door as is possible, and a pair of 8" bass drivers at the rear. Crossover points generally being around 80hz and 3khz. This is plenty loud enough for most people, except for head bangers.
No car could image as well as a high quality home setup, but many cars can image EXTREEMLY well. Cars such as the Alpine F1 system, and many IASCA cars of the last 10years.
As you say below, this depends on who the listener is, we manufacture high end home audio systems, so even the very best car systems can't cut it, AFAIC
However, as you have rightfully argued, Audio is in the ears of the beholder. What sounds good to one person, may not sound good to another.
Agreed.
I will point out however, we chase faithfulness to the original performance and everything we do is aimed at reproducing this.
This is why I know car audio, can, and simply will never achieve what I am chasing.

Rick.
 

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Looking in YOUR bathroom.
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This is why I know car audio, can, and simply will never achieve what I am chasing.
so true.......but that is 1/2 the fun

audax make some bloody excelent mids, allong with Seas and Scanspeak, home audio drivers are often a cut above car audio driver.

you will need heaps and heaps of EQing to get a simple 8" to produce 20hz at 0db @ reasonable listening levels 90-100db. If a system cant hold SQ at high volume levels, then its realy not faithful to the recording/origional production, as you could attest, Full orchastra's are extreemly dynamic with some passages live exceding 105db easly
 

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RIP Sox.....
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Walkinshaw said:

audax make some bloody excelent mids, allong with Seas and Scanspeak, home audio drivers are often a cut above car audio driver.
That's true, but they are at least filtering down some of the technology into the car arena.
Not exactly high end, but Audax are making a really trick 6" coax driver using there Aerogel cones. I'm using a whole heap of them scattered around the house in the ceiling, decent sound in every room. For the money they are excellent.
you will need heaps and heaps of EQing to get a simple 8" to produce 20hz at 0db @ reasonable listening levels 90-100db. If a system cant hold SQ at high volume levels, then its realy not faithful to the recording/origional production, as you could attest, Full orchastra's are extreemly dynamic with some passages live exceding 105db easly
Yeh, ok you got me, though I did say a pair of 8" drivers.
You're right though, for realistic levels of bass to 20hz though a 12" long throw driver is better, yes.
Rick.
 
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