[I8AHSV]

I am about to start a rebuild on my new motor and I was thinking about doing a twin turbo setup. At this point in time nothing has been decided yet and I am just after some good advice before I commit my self to the project. The motor will be going into an 1993 EB Fairmont and will be replacing my 302. This is a quick rundown on some of the parts that I am planing on using.

351 Windsor D4 block
Eagle Stroker Crank
Carillo Rods
Probe forgies (Was going to use JE but they don't have low comp pistons.
Total Seal Rings
King Bearings
1/2" Main Girdle with studs
AFR 225 Heads With Stainless Steel Race Valves
Hydraulic Roller Cam - Cam grind not decided yet but it will be mild
Compression will be around 9:1
Trick Flow R Intake Manifold With suitable injectors, fuel pump and maybe Vortech Fuel Rails if needed.
Custom Intercooler.
Autronic Engine Management

The turbos that I would like to use are Garett GT30 or GT35 units

The questions that I have are:

A. Is there any cutting of metal involved in the engine bay (eg shocker towers) or will the turbos fit without the engine bay modifications. I know this might be a dumb question but I really don't know how big or small these turbo units are since all the quotes and specs were over the phone or by email.

B. So far the best price I can get the turbos for is around $2600 each and I was wondering if this is a good price and if there is someone that can do a better deal preferably in Melbourne.

C. Anyone in Melbourne that can fabricate the exhaust manifold for me...I am more after quality and reasonable price then hunting for bargains and dodgy workmanship. I've read somewhere that someone has used 1966/67 mustang reverse mounted log style exhaust with a custom fitting to accommodate the turbos. Any suggestions?

D. Where is a good location for the turbos. I was thinking about removing the standard intake box and moving the battery to the boot and mounting the turbos there.

Money is and isn't an issue (I am willing to pay any reasonable price) as I will be doing this in stages since I am in no rush. I want to use all new parts so I don't really want to be tracking second hand turbos at the wreckers or importers...etc. The motor will be built first then I will do the turbos and intercooler followed by engine management, injectors, fuel pump(s) etc.

I am open to suggestions and any good and valuable advice will be appreciated. I would like to know if all the trouble will be worth it or not before I begin this project. At this point in time I don't really care about what bhp the motor will make and I have a self imposed bhp limit of 700bhp and 6000rpm maximum because that's as much as the stock block will take but in future If I get addicted to the power I might upgrade to Dart or SVO block.

Sorry about the big post.

 

[not ford]

If you want to know if its worth it have a look at www.toohighpsi.com .This guy uses small 2nd hand turbos and still goes bloody fast.

Also there is an AU XR8 ute with twin turbos in Perth I think. There is an article of it in Zoom, try and find a back issue of it. The article should give you a good idea of part placement.

The GT35s aren't small turbos, I believe they are just slightly smaller than the unit on the BA XR6 turbo. Twin GT35s IMO are a little big for your power goal, they are rated around the 550hp mark each. With two of these at the right boost levels you may struggle to keep under 700hp!!

 

[DansEdgli]

Also check out the turbo mustang site. do a search on google for turbo mustangs and she will be near the top the list. Plenty people there would have done this just not with an EB. There is a list of people who sell kits as well with expected power output and details of turbos used.
It would be worth a look.

Oh and my GT30 flows 600hp. The GT35 can flow up to 700HP each. They are pretty big.

Dan

 

[I8AHSV]

Thanx for the info so far...I am aware of the flow rates but what i need to know is their physical size and if they will be able to fit into my engine bay without me choping shocker towers and stuff like that. I want to be able to bring the car back to normal state if i ever decide to sell the motor. I don't want to be stuck with holes everywhere. Same goes with the intercooler fitting & plumbing.

As for the power goal there isnt one ....I am more interested in the way that the whole combo develops power then just plain old high end horspower. GT35's are rated up to 700bhp each which if i decide to upgrade the block in the future will be more then suficient for my needs without needing to upgrade them. I am not building this motor to win dyno comps. I want to do some drag racing & circuit racing in the future but I would also like to retain half decent idle and power delivery as i want to be able to drive the car on the street. That's why I also chose the 6000rpm limit.

 

[DansEdgli]

If it would help I can measure my GT30 and give you the dimensions.

 

[ebxr8240]

Whats your email address I'll send some pics of mine..

www.turbomustangs.com www.corral.net

Realy a T3/4 would be quite enough. Even the T3's flow 300 each any way and have intergrated wastgates..In some ways its easier to fit just one T76 in the aircleaner area with a crossover pipe...Even with 351 don't build power more than 700 h.p..

 

[I8AHSV]

DansEdgli that would be good. I just need to know the rough measurements so that I know what I am dealing with.

ebxr8240 if you got some pics of yours please send them to [email protected]

At the moment my biggest concern is the location of the turbos. I don't mind relocating stuff in the engine bay if I have to but I really don't want to start chopping metal. The other question that I have is did you have to reinforce the car in any way.

 

[DansEdgli]

okay its roughly 22cm long from intake to opposite end, 24cm wide and 16cm high.
Mine is internally gated.

 

[I8AHSV]

Thanx DansEdgli for the measurments...It would be good if the GT35's have internal wastegate because it would save me some $$ as I wouldn't have to buy external wastegates and it would reduce the amount of crap that I would have in the engine bay.

Also I've heard that some Mazda Rotary engines were fitted with T04 Turbos as standard? Does anyone know what year and Series are they? How much power do they flow and how obtainable are they? What is a reasnable price to pay for them?

 

[DansEdgli]

No worries. You should be able to get them with internal gates. I think the GT35 is the one on the new XR6 and that has internal gate.

 

[not ford]

The XR6 turbo is supposed to have a hybrid GT35/40 turbo which is internally gated. The front is GT35 and the back is GT40. If you want a visual comparison look at the twinturbov8.com site, there are pics of GT40 turbos against a CD.

No rotaries came out with TO4s as std. Altough for a std turbo the ser 4 and 5 have quite a large turbo and wastegate arrangement.

 

[DansEdgli]

pic of GT40

 

[I8AHSV]

I went on to Ray Hall Turbo Site and looked at the online catalog of the GT series twin ball bearing turbos...according to the sites info only GT25's and smaller are internaly gated but it says nothing about the GT30 or GT35.

Anyways here is a link to his site and some pics that he has....

http://www.turbofast.com.au/GTpictures.html

Looking at the pictures the GT35 looks to be externaly gated...

Speaking of the XR6 turbos I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of one of those units. I know they are capable of flowing 600bhp and as not ford mentioned they are internaly gated

 

[DansEdgli]

XR6 turbo

my turbo

 

[I8AHSV]

The Judge ute I've seen that car in reall life at Easternats the year it won the dyno shootout (2000 or 2001) with 850bhp @ rear wheels and that was one Animal of a car....He had to chop the shocker towers to fit the turbos and pipes.... If my memory serves me he had external waste gates on his turbos...

Thanks for the turbo pictures DansEdgli. So far it's all go it's just that I would like to see the engine bay pictures that ebxr8240 is going to email me... as i said so far it all looking good. I will start on the motor at the end of next month.

Can anyone please post some turbo retailers in Melbourne prefrebly but it really isn't important if they are interstate retailers I would like to see if i can get the turbos at a beter price.

 

[MakoZH]

External WasteGate is much much better...
Also the GT40 out of an XR6 can handle much more boost... but the engine might not..

 

[not ford]

Even though you have stated this the turbos you are wanting have been used on a twin turbo Walky which did about 750+ rwhp at the horsepower heros!

I would think there would be nothing wrong in using a pair of GT30s. The response would be better and you would be able to drive thru their peak effeciency range more. With the GT35s IMO you will be driving into their peak efficency as you reach max revs. Plus I bet the GT35s cost noticeably more. Turbo selection won't affect idle quality.

Also don't skimp on external wastegates. If your turbo selection is even slightly wrong internal wastegates may not control boost properly. The Judge Giogotollo couldn't control boost with its two 45mm wastegates. It actually made 850rwhp at partial throttle and milled out 45mm housings. I think his rear AR must have been too small.

You really need to state how you want the power delivery and rev ranges, when boost comes on etc....

Also if you are really will to spend the money you should look into the new aftermerket Ford heads designed by John Kasse. These will be sold exclusively by Jegs. These will apparently blow away everything on the market. It runs staggered valves like the clevo. In case you don't know who John Kasse is he has redesigned several heads for Ford Motorsport and has worked contratctually with Ford for the last 20 years.

 

[I8AHSV]

Thanks for the info not ford...There is no price difference between the GT30 and GT35 that's why I am getting GT35's. As for the external waste gates I am going to look into it. There is few places here in melbourne that do good turbo upgrades AVO and Nizpro being just some of them... I will give those guys a call on monday and see what they have to say about the whole idea...

As i mentioned in my original post the only reason I want to get the GT35's is if i get to upgrade the block and want more power. This way I don't have to upgrade the turbos as well....

I wouldn't mind seting up the car for straight gas eg Gas Research but once again i will look into it .....

BTW as I said any info or idea will be apreciated so just keep them coming...

 

[not ford]

I don't like LPG, in blow thru its a pain in the ass to setup right and for your turbos you would need lots of flow. I have never seen or heard of a LPG setup to the degree required on your project. Also in racing application I believe fuel injection is 100 times safer.

Also if you get a good ecu you can have the ability of launch control, rev limiter, boost control, traction control in one package in addition to the fuel injection. It does cost more to step up to it but I think its better and when properly setup fuel economy is not much worse. There is apparently a guy with a 530rwhp Vortech VN V8 and he claims to have done up to 775km out of one tank of petrol.

Have you looked at GCG turbos??

Also if you are in Melbourne I believe JPC are around the corner, they also make wastegates.

Also too you have to expect a minimum of some minor hacking to fit this turbo setup, especially for the intercooler

 

[DansEdgli]

I asked gas research about info on their kits for a blow through turbo set up and their twin converter kit flows 600hp worth of fuel. I assume this is their highest flowing setup as I only got quotes for this and a 300hp setup.
That being said gas 250 run LPG on his 10 second xf and he says its great. If you alter the boost , LPG adapts automatically and it doesnt need further tuning after the initial tune when boost is altered.
He also gets 300kms to a tank in sedate driving. How is that for economy!